Discussion:
Grounding plate in P-bass?
(too old to reply)
John Bigboote
2008-04-23 02:08:49 UTC
Permalink
How, exactly, is the brass grounding plate used in (presumably
vintage) Precision basses? Were the pickups originally grounded to the
plates, and then the plates to ground in the control cavity? If so,
why would Fender do that and not just run wire to the control cavity
from the pickups?

Were they fixed at all, or did they just sit at the bottom of the
rout, then weatherstripping, then pickup, held in place by downward
pressure?

Finally, supposing I were anal enough to copper-shield the pickup rout
(not that I'm *that* weird) and ground it to the shielding in the
control cavity (that would be, like, so totally OCD!), is there any
point at all in having that plate in there?

Just curious -- my vintage-y 57/62 FrankenP is coming together nicely,
but I don't know about that plate.

-jb
SotR
2008-04-23 02:21:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Bigboote
Finally, supposing I were anal enough to copper-shield the pickup rout
(not that I'm *that* weird)<<<<<<<

Uh oh, I guess I'm one weird and anal mofo. I practically enveloped my
J-bass in copper lol. I made a lock box, including the pup route and it
still hums. Even with the Samarium Cobalt stacked HB's. I haven't been
electrocuted so I guess I did it right.
But then, it only hums through the Hartke at the studio and my GenzBenz I
bought used a few weeks ago. Through my guitar amps I was using prior it's
dead quiet. But, the Rocktron Hush takes care of that. Funny that it hums
through two good quality bass amps but not a good and a cheap guitar amp.
I am interested to hear some qualified answers to your question.
SotR
Benj
2008-04-23 06:52:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Bigboote
Finally, supposing I were anal enough to copper-shield the pickup rout
(not that I'm *that* weird) and ground it to the shielding in the
control cavity (that would be, like, so totally OCD!), is there any
point at all in having that plate in there?
I don't know about vintage P-basses (don't own one), but generally
speaking to eliminate hum you need to shield EVERYTHING in sight and
that includes the pickups! You ESPECIALLY want to shield any parts
that are up against the BACK side of the bass body. That is because
your gut is right there broadcasting hum into the bass! Your body is
this HUGE antenna and it easily couples through the wood of a bass
body to induce hum in your signal. THis is why touching a ground with
your finger can reduce hum. It shorts out your body hum pickup. So.
Shielding everything is not being ANAL it's being "careful". The
first stage is to enclose all controls and wires in a conductive box
so they don't pick up hum. That is the standard shielding.

But your pickups are connected to the signal lines as well. That means
that the pickup WIRES need to be shielded so they don't pickup hum and
the pickup COILS do as well. Now the pickup coil tends to be "hot" on
one end and "ground" on the other (except in a P bass where two coils
are in series. Hence one pickup will tend to hum more than the other
one. Since the magnets or pole pieces are usually conductive, you want
them grounded too (they go right through the coil and hence
capacitively couple hum to it). You'd really like the entire pickup
array totally enclosed in a metal box to block hum, but you can't do
that because it has to be open on the top to pickup the strings. A
good first cut is the brass under plate. It provides a nice shield, a
place to ground the pole pieces to and blocks a large amount of the
hum coming out of your body. A step up would be to shield the bottom
and sides of the pickup rout which I routinely do just for drill. I
haven't noticed any huge improvement in shielding by adding the
sides.

Some pickups come with the under plate shielding and ground connection
to the pole pieces already built in. And if they have shielded wires
as well, in that case you don't have to do a thing with the pickup
cavities as the pickup maker already took care of it for you.

OK?
Brian Running
2008-04-23 14:15:57 UTC
Permalink
That is because your gut is right there broadcasting hum into the bass! Your body is
this HUGE antenna and it easily couples through the wood of a bass
body to induce hum in your signal. THis is why touching a ground with
your finger can reduce hum. It shorts out your body hum pickup.
Benj, did you ever consider that your tin-foil hat might be picking up
the microwaves from the spy satellites that hover over your house? Have
you compared hum with and without the hat on?
Benj
2008-04-28 06:26:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Running
That is because your gut is right there broadcasting hum into the bass! Your body is
this HUGE antenna and it easily couples through the wood of a bass
body to induce hum in your signal. THis is why touching a ground with
your finger can reduce hum. It shorts out your body hum pickup.
Benj, did you ever consider that your tin-foil hat might be picking up
the microwaves from the spy satellites that hover over your house? Have
you compared hum with and without the hat on?
Brian, are you saying that I"m nuts? Are you saying that what I've
said is wrong? Be prepared to defend yourself with technical
expertise! (We've been through this before!)

Point. Circuits in a bass are high impedance. Pots are in the 100k
range and amp input is similar. Ever notice how if you touch the
center pin on an RCA jack or the tip on you guitar cable you get this
huge hum? So just WHERE does that hum come from? What is the SOURCE of
that hum? I'll tell you. It comes from the capacitor formed by your
body being one "plate" and the AC wiring in the walls and cords being
the other "plate". Because the input impedance into the amp is high,
the value of this capacitor can be small and still transfer
significant AC voltages even at 60 HZ (and it's harmonics). Your body
is quite a large "conductor" as capacitor plates go! Same thing goes
for a bass except to a lesser degree because there the wiring is one
plate, you body is the second plate and the wires inside the bass the
third plate. It's really two capacitors in series. When you touch the
strings or other ground you in essence short out the center point
between the two capacitors grounding out the signal. ALL this kind of
hum is known as "electrostatic hum" which means it's coupled into the
circuits by CAPACITIVE pickup! If touching the strings does NOT kill
the hum then you've got magnetic hum which is coupled in by a magnetic
field rather than an electric one. In P basses the split pickup is
used where each side is wires in the opposite phase from the other for
OUTSIDE magnetic fields but are wired in the same phase for STRING
signals. This trick is called "humbucking". Basically uniform magnetic
fields are canceled and string signals add. This is why P basses have
little problem with magnetic pickup. Single coil pickups, on the other
hand do NOT cancel external hum fields. Hence the well-known hum
problems with them.

So just what is it with this explanation you have a problem with?
State your technical case and I'll be happy to tear it apart for you!

And by the way, "tin" or aluminum foil does NOT stop "mind control
rays"! You have to use a LEAD foil hat to do that. OK?
Brian Running
2008-04-28 15:32:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Benj
Brian, are you saying that I"m nuts? Are you saying that what I've
said is wrong? Be prepared to defend yourself with technical
expertise! (We've been through this before!)
Geez, Benj, I was beginning to wonder if you were going to reply or not.
Don't leave me hanging like that.

You and I have been lobbing semi-friendly, sarcastic bombs at one
another for years, I don't really mean them and I don't think you really
do, either, but we have a tradition to uphold. I thought the ball was
in my court after you jumped on me about concealed carry right after you
said you'd vote for me for president, so I felt compelled to lob one
back at you.

Here's the thing about the buzz antenna. There's absolutely no doubt
that the human body plays a part in the hum, that's obvious. But, the
problem is that it's not consistent, it's entirely dependent on many
variables in the environment at the particular moment that it happens.
It's not a consistently, reliably-repeatable phenomenon, so it's not
valid to say simply that the human body is a big hum antenna, radiating
induced hum into the pickups. Sometimes, there's hum when you're not
touching the strings, sometimes it's the other way around. Sometimes
it's coming in through the power cord, sometimes it's induced in the
lead from bass to amp, sometimes the pickups pick it up directly out of
the air. There are times when the body seems to act as an antenna,
there are times when it seems to block interference.

It seems to me that RF from CRTs, neon and fluorescent lights are picked
up directly into the pickups, because you can usually null the noise out
by moving the bass into another direction, and touching the strings or
holding the bass near your body makes no difference. But when there's
ground-related noise the body does seem to matter. Touch the strings,
hold the bass away from you, it affects the noise. When the noise comes
in through the power lines or is induced into some cable somewhere, then
pickup position or body don't matter at all.
Benj
2008-04-28 18:59:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Running
Geez, Benj, I was beginning to wonder if you were going to reply or not.
Don't leave me hanging like that.
You and I have been lobbing semi-friendly, sarcastic bombs at one
another for years, I don't really mean them and I don't think you really
do, either, but we have a tradition to uphold. I thought the ball was
in my court after you jumped on me about concealed carry right after you
said you'd vote for me for president, so I felt compelled to lob one
back at you.
OK. :-)

[You actually REMEMBER the crap I say here? Oh my! ]
Post by Brian Running
Here's the thing about the buzz antenna. There's absolutely no doubt
that the human body plays a part in the hum, that's obvious.
Um. sometimes. Plays no role in MAGNETIC hum because the human body is
sort of conductive but not magnetic.
Post by Brian Running
But, the
problem is that it's not consistent, it's entirely dependent on many
variables in the environment at the particular moment that it happens.
It's not a consistently, reliably-repeatable phenomenon,
Yes, this is true, but I don't know that it's a "problem". I mean the
hum induced into the bass circuit DOES depend on the configuration of
wires in the room, and where the body is (just move the bass away from
your body and observe that (sometimes) the hum will go down. So sure
it's all about position because the "capacitor" made up of the wires
and your body that is coupling into the circuit has a value that
depends on the position of everything.
Post by Brian Running
so it's not
valid to say simply that the human body is a big hum antenna, radiating
induced hum into the pickups.
Well, it is valid to say the human body is a big hum antenna WHEN it
IS a big hum antenna! Of course there are times when it's not acting
that way!
Post by Brian Running
Sometimes, there's hum when you're not
touching the strings, sometimes it's the other way around. Sometimes
it's coming in through the power cord, sometimes it's induced in the
lead from bass to amp, sometimes the pickups pick it up directly out of
the air. There are times when the body seems to act as an antenna,
there are times when it seems to block interference.
Yes. And that makes sense if we consider the body to be part of a big
capacitor. What that "capacitor" does to the signal really depend on
how it's "hooked up" and that of course depends on that "configuration
in the room" which is sort of unknown and out of control to a degree.
Post by Brian Running
It seems to me that RF from CRTs, neon and fluorescent lights are picked
up directly into the pickups, because you can usually null the noise out
by moving the bass into another direction, and touching the strings or
holding the bass near your body makes no difference. But when there's
ground-related noise the body does seem to matter. Touch the strings,
hold the bass away from you, it affects the noise. When the noise comes
in through the power lines or is induced into some cable somewhere, then
pickup position or body don't matter at all.
All the above really is true. But you can separate the effects. There
are three in total. The first two are what I talked about. The first
is capacitive (electrostatic) pickup of hum. This is where the power
wiring (which is not shielded) in the room or to the gear radiates a
hum field which the capacitor formed between the bass circuits and the
unshielded power wiring induces a hum into that circuit. This occurs
because the circuit is high impedance and that allows a VERY small
capacitor to induce substantial hum. All the conductive things nearby
(including bodies) will affect that "capacitor" and therefore the
hum. Usually things like touching the strings will reduce hum because
it grounds out part of the "capacitor" formed by your body, but since
the whole arrangement is sort of random and unknown, there are times
when truly weird effects are observed. I didn't want to get into the
"magic" aspects of shielding but yeah, some truly weird crap can
actually be observed from time to time! such as touching the strings
increasing hum.

The second hum source is magnetic fields right into the pickups. Large
power transformers are the usual culprit since magnetic fields are
caused by heavy currents in wires. These are the opposite of above.
Your body will play NO role in modifying these effects as bodies are
not magnetic. However, one interesting fact is that usually one can
find a position of the bass where magnetic fields are nulled out. This
is sort of like the humbucker idea only it's positional. So if your
bass is humming like mad and if you move it around into different
orientations and you FIND one where the hum goes away (it probably
won't be a position you can play it in!) That often means the noise is
magnetic and can only be eliminated with a humbucker pickup (On a jazz
bass that is both pickups on full or identical volume settings) or
simply getting away from the transformer or other source. Many people
don't realize that the hum blocked by humbucker pickups is NOT the
same hum blocked by copper foil or other cavity shielding! A split
coil P bass IS a humbucker pickup so this is not a problem there. Of
course electrostatic pickup is positionally sensitive too, though you
usually can't find a "null" position where it totally goes away.

The third noise source would be electromagnetic WAVES. These are like
radio waves (and sometimes actually ARE radio waves when you can hear
a radio station through your amp), but usually are Noise waves that
come from various pulsed sources of current. (as you mention some,
crts, neon, fluorescent lights, dimmers, etc.) A pulsed current
actually will generate radio waves due to the large number of
harmonics that short pulses generate. These are true waves that can
bounce around the room and are usually "broadband" which means they
can be picked up on radios or other circuits that act like radios
(which typically is an amp front end that does not have enough rf
filtering on the input. G&L basses are VERY prone to this pickup in
active mode! But happily, the same shielding that works for
electrostatic pickup above, ALSO works to block RF waves as well. So
it's kind of a two-for. BUT RF waves are FAR more insidious and they
crawl all over everything sneak into tiny cracks and holes in
shielding and even will travel down the OUTSIDE of shielded wire! If
there is an RF noise problem "magic" is often required to fix it after
all else fails! :-)

So yeah, you are right there is not ONE thing that works here and
yeah, the problems can be mysterious and complex but happily the
principles of shielding are pretty simple and well known so that once
you get the hum blocked it no longer matters what kind of complexities
are going on out in the room. Wash my mouth out with soap, I think we
agree but just were saying it a bit differently.
John Bigboote
2008-04-29 02:42:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Benj
Post by Brian Running
Geez, Benj, I was beginning to wonder if you were going to reply or not.
Don't leave me hanging like that.
You and I have been lobbing semi-friendly, sarcastic bombs at one
another for years, I don't really mean them and I don't think you really
do, either, but we have a tradition to uphold. I thought the ball was
in my court after you jumped on me about concealed carry right after you
said you'd vote for me for president, so I felt compelled to lob one
back at you.
OK. :-)
[You actually REMEMBER the crap I say here? Oh my! ]
You two going to get a room, or what?

-jb

Jose de las Heras
2008-04-27 23:08:18 UTC
Permalink
I recently shielded my J-style bass. I also changed the scratchplate for a
black aluminum one I bought a while ago on eBay. Just because I liked it,
but I found it is *great* if connected to the ground properly as it
practically surrounds the neck pickup too.
I'm not suggesting we go and get metal pickguards, but if you happen to like
them...

Jose
--
Musha ring dum a doo dum a dah - www.mcnach.com
Current fave guitar: Fender 'Sambora' Stratocaster
Current fave bass: Warwick Corvette $$

Fender Stratocaster - part coffee table, part spaceship.
John Bigboote
2008-04-28 00:15:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jose de las Heras
I recently shielded my J-style bass. I also changed the scratchplate for a
black aluminum one I bought a while ago on eBay. Just because I liked it,
but I found it is *great* if connected to the ground properly as it
practically surrounds the neck pickup too.
I'm not suggesting we go and get metal pickguards, but if you happen to like
them...
This particular bass is getting the '57 anodized aluminum pickguard,
as a matter of fact.

But more to the point... doesn't anyone have experience installing a P
pickup with the brass grounding plate???

-jb
John Bigboote
2008-04-23 14:51:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Bigboote
Finally, supposing I were anal enough to copper-shield the pickup rout
(not that I'm *that* weird) and ground it to the shielding in the
control cavity (that would be, like, so totally OCD!), is there any
point at all in having that plate in there?
Okay, it's probably worth mentioning here that I already *have* copper-
shielded the pickup rout and control cavity. I'm pretty good at it, I
had plenty of foil, and I figured why not, since I had the bare body.
Worth saying that I think shielding pickup cavities is a meaningless
exercise if you don't somehow shield the inside of the covers as well,
and ground them to the shielding of the rout. Or, you should shield
the coils themselves, which is actually a much bigger PITA in my
experience.

I'm that anal. I'm that OCD. I was having a little fun at my own
expense.

Still no theories/proven explanations about the Fender ground plate?

-jb
Benj
2008-04-28 06:38:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Bigboote
I'm that anal. I'm that OCD. I was having a little fun at my own
expense.
I'm glad you finally fessed up! In my experience shielding the pickup
rout may or may not help depending on the pickups. It helps most with
cheapo unshielded pickups.
Post by John Bigboote
Still no theories/proven explanations about the Fender ground plate?
My theory is that if you look at a bunch of pickups (including some
made by Fender over the years) you see some have this metal plate in
the bottom and others are just a coil and magnets in a plastic case.
My theory is that the brass plate was a kind of substitute for the
metal plate in the bottom of the pickup to afford some degree of
shielding from the backside with unshielded pickups. In that regard I
presume the plate was meant to be connected to the ground wire of the
pickup set which returned to the cavity ground and usually grounds the
magnets and poles too. I presume that if you've shielded the pickup
route as best you can, that the brass plate is totally superfluous
unless it performs some non-electrical function like damping pickup
vibration.

Why don't you just contact Fender and get the explanation out of the
horse's mouth?
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