cruel summer

[js]

So tomorrow (today?) I have a 4 gig 2 hours away that STARTS at noon. That
means I need to leave here by atleast 9:30AM to get there on time. Now, I
haven't seen 9:30 AM in years...My post time alone should tell you that

The money? eh... If it were any other time, I'd have said forget it.

However, this has been the most brutal summer I can remember, at least since
I left Buffalo 15 years ago.

Outside of my steady church gig, my monthly fusion gig and a few other gigs
that have dribbled in, there is NOTHING happening.

The even sadder thing is that when I talk to other full timers, I am in even
BETTER shape than they are. Even so, I take pretty much whatever comes in
these days, no matter how far away. Reminds me of my apprentice days when
would drive 3 hours there and back to net 20 bucks.

I'm not holding out much hope for the fall either, let alone New Year's. I
may actually go home and get piss drunk this year rather than gig.

You?

[Jonathan Chase]

Post by js
Outside of my steady church gig, my monthly fusion gig and a few other gigs
that have dribbled in, there is NOTHING happening.
You?

I have three more gigs and then I'm finished with the music business for
at least the rest of the year, maybe longer. Not enough work, not enough
money, way too much stress. A week ago I played on a house boat patio, just
boards tied together on the river behind a floating house, no rail or
anything. I kept picturing all my stuff just sliding off the edge every
time the "boat" rocked. Just not worth putting up with that crap for a
hundred bucks.
This week I manned a nonprofit table at a resource fair and attended a
very intense workshop on IEP (special ed) planning. My new business cards
are finally done so I'm handing them out to everyone I meet, trying to find
some clients for the beginning of the school year. It's going to be very
strange, going from gigging to advocacy work, and to look at my calendar
next month and see EVERY weekend open. At least I won't have to put up with
stoned guitarists or drummers who can't count anymore.
-Jonathan

[js]

Dude, what the hell? You haven't even come CLOSE to building up a "crust"
yet, and you're already bailing?

If you're bitten by the bug, this life is like crack...I give it 6 months
tops, before you come crawling back to some band or other.

Post by Jonathan Chase

Post by js
Outside of my steady church gig, my monthly fusion gig and a few other gigs
that have dribbled in, there is NOTHING happening.
You?

I have three more gigs and then I'm finished with the music business for
at least the rest of the year, maybe longer. Not enough work, not enough
money, way too much stress. A week ago I played on a house boat patio, just
boards tied together on the river behind a floating house, no rail or
anything. I kept picturing all my stuff just sliding off the edge every
time the "boat" rocked. Just not worth putting up with that crap for a
hundred bucks.
This week I manned a nonprofit table at a resource fair and attended a
very intense workshop on IEP (special ed) planning. My new business cards
are finally done so I'm handing them out to everyone I meet, trying to find
some clients for the beginning of the school year. It's going to be very
strange, going from gigging to advocacy work, and to look at my calendar
next month and see EVERY weekend open. At least I won't have to put up with
stoned guitarists or drummers who can't count anymore.
-Jonathan

[Jonathan Chase]

Post by js
Dude, what the hell? You haven't even come CLOSE to building up a "crust"
yet, and you're already bailing?
If you're bitten by the bug, this life is like crack...I give it 6 months
tops, before you come crawling back to some band or other.

I don't know, when I'm playing "Gimme one reason" for the four
thousandth time I feel pretty crusty! The gigs right now just aren't going
anywhere or paying enough to be worth the hassle. I'd rather have my Friday
night free to take my little brother out to a high school football game or
work on my advocacy business, than play a lame bar gig for seventy bucks.
The transportation issue is a pretty big deal right now and I am working on
driving but I won't be ready to take care of myself for at least a couple
months.
There's some very heavy financial stuff going on in the household as
well, I won't know the whole story for about two weeks but there's a chance
I could have to sell some gear. It's not pretty.
I can always pick up a bar gig down the road but right now being an
advocate feels way better than being a bar / wedding musician. Maybe if I
come through these hard times and then get my business rolling I'll get back
to playing with a band.
I just finished a very heavy IEP training workshop, my head feels like
it's going to explode but now I'm prepared to take a family anywhere from
that first phone call about getting their kid diagnosed all the way to the
nuclear 'district mediation' and then 'litigation' option. Now I just need
to find some clients...
I started rebuilding my website, here's a link if you want to check it
out: www.jonathanchase.net
-Jonathan

[The Sicker Vicar]

Post by js
Dude, what the hell? You haven't even come CLOSE to building up a "crust"
yet, and you're already bailing?
If you're bitten by the bug, this life is like crack...I give it 6 months
tops, before you come crawling back to some band or other.

    I don't know, when I'm playing "Gimme one reason" for the four
thousandth time I feel pretty crusty!  The gigs right now just aren't going
anywhere or paying enough to be worth the hassle.  I'd rather have my Friday
night free to take my little brother out to a high school football game or
work on my advocacy business, than play a lame bar gig for seventy bucks.
The transportation issue is a pretty big deal right now and I am working on
driving but I won't be ready to take care of myself for at least a couple
months.
    There's some very heavy financial stuff going on in the household as
well, I won't know the whole story for about two weeks but there's a chance
I could have to sell some gear.  It's not pretty.
    I can always pick up a bar gig down the road but right now being an
advocate feels way better than being a bar / wedding musician.  Maybe if I
come through these hard times and then get my business rolling I'll get back
to playing with a band.
    I just finished a very heavy IEP training workshop, my head feels like
it's going to explode but now I'm prepared to take a family anywhere from
that first phone call about getting their kid diagnosed all the way to the
nuclear 'district mediation' and then 'litigation' option.  Now I just need
to find some clients...
    I started rebuilding my website, here's a link if you want to check it
out:  www.jonathanchase.net
    -Jonathan

What is an advocacy business?
How does it work?
Where does your profit come from?

[fourstring]

Ditto the UK.
Too many bands chasing too few gigs so
down goes the money.
We have other pressures here that make things worse,
mainly the live music licensing laws that have
shut down loads of small venues plus karaoke,
disco etc which don't need to be licensed so
out goes the live music.

As I retire from the day job next Friday
I'd hoped to pick up more gigs to supplement
the income... back to being a pro muso.
Hah...I'd starve if I really needed the money.
I hope things pick up for you.
--
Clive Norris
Managing Director
Selectron (UK) Ltd
www.espguitars.co.uk
www.skullstrings.com
www.espshop.co.uk
www.mightymite.com
www.coreoneproduct.com
www.emgpickups.co.uk
www.tube-shop.com
www.whirlwindusa.com
"They laughed at Newton,
they laughed at Einstein,
but they also laughed at
Bozo the Clown."
Carl Sagan

Post by js
So tomorrow (today?) I have a 4 gig 2 hours away that STARTS at noon. That
means I need to leave here by atleast 9:30AM to get there on time. Now, I
haven't seen 9:30 AM in years...My post time alone should tell you that
The money? eh... If it were any other time, I'd have said forget it.
However, this has been the most brutal summer I can remember, at least since
I left Buffalo 15 years ago.
Outside of my steady church gig, my monthly fusion gig and a few other gigs
that have dribbled in, there is NOTHING happening.
The even sadder thing is that when I talk to other full timers, I am in even
BETTER shape than they are. Even so, I take pretty much whatever comes in
these days, no matter how far away. Reminds me of my apprentice days when
would drive 3 hours there and back to net 20 bucks.
I'm not holding out much hope for the fall either, let alone New Year's. I
may actually go home and get piss drunk this year rather than gig.
You?

[Larry Shaw]

We have lost a lot of 'Pub' venues over here in the UK, closing at the rate
of 30 a week (yes) so the Pub bands are being hammered by those losses. The
Country Music circuit is still fit and healthy but even then the
anti-smoking laws have cut attendance numbers and bar profits are way down.
Upshot is that bands are still only getting same money as two years ago for
a standard 3X3/4h Gig. The Theatres are now using mainly recorded music,
even for kiddies 'pantomimes' type of show. the Musicians Union is pretty
helpless because subscriptions are too high for most musicians to stay in
membership and the Union remains quite powerless with the typical Brit
attitude of 'why should I do anything to help my fellow musos?'. Corporate
events are still good payers, but due to the failing economic structure they
are getting fewer in number. Everyone seems to be playing mainly festivals!
Where the money is either not there at all (so called 'charity' festivals)
or the money is very poor.

Anyway, that's my take on this side of the pond.

Post by fourstring
Ditto the UK.
Too many bands chasing too few gigs so
down goes the money.
We have other pressures here that make things worse,
mainly the live music licensing laws that have
shut down loads of small venues plus karaoke,
disco etc which don't need to be licensed so
out goes the live music.
As I retire from the day job next Friday
I'd hoped to pick up more gigs to supplement
the income... back to being a pro muso.
Hah...I'd starve if I really needed the money.
I hope things pick up for you.
--
Clive Norris
Managing Director
Selectron (UK) Ltd
www.espguitars.co.uk
www.skullstrings.com
www.espshop.co.uk
www.mightymite.com
www.coreoneproduct.com
www.emgpickups.co.uk
www.tube-shop.com
www.whirlwindusa.com
"They laughed at Newton,
they laughed at Einstein,
but they also laughed at
Bozo the Clown."
Carl Sagan

Post by js
So tomorrow (today?) I have a 4 gig 2 hours away that STARTS at noon. That
means I need to leave here by atleast 9:30AM to get there on time. Now, I
haven't seen 9:30 AM in years...My post time alone should tell you that
The money? eh... If it were any other time, I'd have said forget it.
However, this has been the most brutal summer I can remember, at least since
I left Buffalo 15 years ago.
Outside of my steady church gig, my monthly fusion gig and a few other gigs
that have dribbled in, there is NOTHING happening.
The even sadder thing is that when I talk to other full timers, I am in even
BETTER shape than they are. Even so, I take pretty much whatever comes in
these days, no matter how far away. Reminds me of my apprentice days when
would drive 3 hours there and back to net 20 bucks.
I'm not holding out much hope for the fall either, let alone New Year's. I
may actually go home and get piss drunk this year rather than gig.
You?

[Lasse W. Wehner]

anti-smoking laws have cut attendance numbers.

You sure about this? In Denmark the anti smoking laws have had next to no
measurable impact on how much people go out - even though pub owners etc.
were totally up in arms back in 2007 when smoking was banned almost
everywhere.

I think the recession is to blame.

/Lasse

[Larry Shaw]

I'm certain Lasse, but admittedly there are some people that will only go
out now that places ARE smoke free... I know that patrons will always to be
split into the two camps of either smokers or non-smokers. I get my
information from surveys carried out by different breweries and Pub
managment companies.... I believe that the smoking ban has affected the
'lower end' of the venue market but helped the 'nicer' places.......

Larry

Post by Lasse W. Wehner

anti-smoking laws have cut attendance numbers.

You sure about this? In Denmark the anti smoking laws have had next to no
measurable impact on how much people go out - even though pub owners etc.
were totally up in arms back in 2007 when smoking was banned almost
everywhere.
I think the recession is to blame.
/Lasse

[Les Cargill]

Post by Lasse W. Wehner

anti-smoking laws have cut attendance numbers.

You sure about this? In Denmark the anti smoking laws have had next to no
measurable impact on how much people go out - even though pub owners etc.
were totally up in arms back in 2007 when smoking was banned almost
everywhere.
I think the recession is to blame.
/Lasse

Demographics, too. Which is the long pole in the tent
depends on where you are.

--
Les Cargill

[The Sicker Vicar]

Post by Les Cargill

Post by Lasse W. Wehner

anti-smoking laws have cut attendance numbers.

You sure about this? In Denmark the anti smoking laws have had next to no
measurable impact on how much people go out - even though pub owners etc.
were totally up in arms back in 2007 when smoking was banned almost
everywhere.
I think the recession is to blame.
/Lasse

Demographics, too. Which is the long pole in the tent
depends on where you are.
--
Les Cargill

As an unrelated but possibly relevant indicator, my wife and I were
walking through Chelsea Market yesterday, for the air conditioning,
where they have lots of food stores that sell high-end food and wine.
We weren't buying anything, and we decided to look around and see what
other people were buying. NOBODY (hardly) was buying ANYTHING
(hardly). We were ALL in there to browse and cool off! If you looked
at the merchants, their faces ranged from shocked and worried to steam
coming out their ears at all the "customers" taking up space without
spending. Know what the two exceptions were? A bread/wine/cheese shop,
and one place was selling picnic baskets--cheap. They were flying off
the shelves, bought by people coming from the bread/wine/cheese place.
This is why the East Village restaurant boom is falling flat years
ahead of shedule—because even misanthropic, status-obsessed New
Yorkers are realizing that a picnic in the park is all they can
afford.

Impossible as it sounds, the subway here is even MORE crowded than
usual, and cabbies are hurting. The parks are mobbed, too, as weekend
getaways price themselves out of existence.

The Met might even stop their "pay what you want" policy, because too
many people are crying poverty and plonking down a dollar, instead of
the $7 "suggestion."

ANYONE making money as a freelancer, especially someone like a
musician whose very product is by definition a "luxury," has my
sincere sympathy. According to people I know who deal in what the rich
spend their money on, don't look for any joy this year at all.

[JoeSpareBedroom]

Post by Les Cargill

Post by Lasse W. Wehner

anti-smoking laws have cut attendance numbers.

You sure about this? In Denmark the anti smoking laws have had next to no
measurable impact on how much people go out - even though pub owners etc.
were totally up in arms back in 2007 when smoking was banned almost
everywhere.
I think the recession is to blame.
/Lasse

Demographics, too. Which is the long pole in the tent
depends on where you are.
--
Les Cargill

As an unrelated but possibly relevant indicator, my wife and I were
walking through Chelsea Market yesterday, for the air conditioning,
where they have lots of food stores that sell high-end food and wine.
We weren't buying anything, and we decided to look around and see what
other people were buying. NOBODY (hardly) was buying ANYTHING
(hardly). We were ALL in there to browse and cool off! If you looked
at the merchants, their faces ranged from shocked and worried to steam
coming out their ears at all the "customers" taking up space without
spending. Know what the two exceptions were? A bread/wine/cheese shop,
and one place was selling picnic baskets--cheap. They were flying off
the shelves, bought by people coming from the bread/wine/cheese place.
This is why the East Village restaurant boom is falling flat years
ahead of shedule—because even misanthropic, status-obsessed New
Yorkers are realizing that a picnic in the park is all they can
afford.

Impossible as it sounds, the subway here is even MORE crowded than
usual, and cabbies are hurting. The parks are mobbed, too, as weekend
getaways price themselves out of existence.

The Met might even stop their "pay what you want" policy, because too
many people are crying poverty and plonking down a dollar, instead of
the $7 "suggestion."

ANYONE making money as a freelancer, especially someone like a
musician whose very product is by definition a "luxury," has my
sincere sympathy. According to people I know who deal in what the rich
spend their money on, don't look for any joy this year at all.

================


As long as Nathan's survives, that's all that matters. :)

[The Sicker Vicar]

Post by The Sicker Vicar

Post by Les Cargill

Post by Lasse W. Wehner

anti-smoking laws have cut attendance numbers.

You sure about this? In Denmark the anti smoking laws have had next to no
measurable impact on how much people go out - even though pub owners etc.
were totally up in arms back in 2007 when smoking was banned almost
everywhere.
I think the recession is to blame.
/Lasse

Demographics, too. Which is the long pole in the tent
depends on where you are.
--
Les Cargill

As an unrelated but possibly relevant indicator, my wife and I were
walking through Chelsea Market yesterday, for the air conditioning,
where they have lots of food stores that sell high-end food and wine.
We weren't buying anything, and we decided to look around and see what
other people were buying. NOBODY (hardly) was buying ANYTHING
(hardly). We were ALL in there to browse and cool off! If you looked
at the merchants, their faces ranged from shocked and worried to steam
coming out their ears at all the "customers" taking up space without
spending. Know what the two exceptions were? A bread/wine/cheese shop,
and one place was selling picnic baskets--cheap. They were flying off
the shelves, bought by people coming from the bread/wine/cheese place.
This is why the East Village restaurant boom is falling flat years
ahead of shedule—because even misanthropic, status-obsessed New
Yorkers are realizing that a picnic in the park is all they can
afford.
Impossible as it sounds, the subway here is even MORE crowded than
usual, and cabbies are hurting. The parks are mobbed, too, as weekend
getaways price themselves out of existence.
The Met might even stop their "pay what you want" policy, because too
many people are crying poverty and plonking down a dollar, instead of
the $7 "suggestion."
ANYONE making money as a freelancer, especially someone like a
musician whose very product is by definition a "luxury," has my
sincere sympathy. According to people I know who deal in what the rich
spend their money on, don't look for any joy this year at all.
================
As long as Nathan's survives, that's all that matters. :)- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

And the crowd at this year's hot-dog-eating championship broke the
previous record.
So we're good.

[Jose de las Heras]

Post by Lasse W. Wehner

anti-smoking laws have cut attendance numbers.

You sure about this? In Denmark the anti smoking laws have had next to no
measurable impact on how much people go out - even though pub owners etc.
were totally up in arms back in 2007 when smoking was banned almost
everywhere.
I think the recession is to blame.
/Lasse

I was going to ask the same, and I am in the UK.
Maybe there are reginal differences, but up here in Edinburgh I haven't
notice a difference with the smoking band. Bars are still packed if they
were packed before. More of them now have space outside the bar too, which
has been a nice improvement.
I thought the consensus was that there was an initial decline, but almost
immediately things went back to business as usual pretty much...

Jose

[Mike Fleming]

Post by Lasse W. Wehner

anti-smoking laws have cut attendance numbers.

You sure about this? In Denmark the anti smoking laws have had next to no
measurable impact on how much people go out - even though pub owners etc.
were totally up in arms back in 2007 when smoking was banned almost
everywhere.

They've certainly been blamed for it. However, the clubs haven't tried
to capitalise on the anti-smoking laws by trying to get more punters
into a more pleasant, smoke-free environment. In fact, clubs are their
own worst enemy - for example, many of them are opposed to allowing
children in, so that's immediately a big market for young couples (and
singles, come to that) lost.

[The Sicker Vicar]

Post by Mike Fleming

Post by Lasse W. Wehner

anti-smoking laws have cut attendance numbers.

You sure about this? In Denmark the anti smoking laws have had next to no
measurable impact on how much people go out - even though pub owners etc.
were totally up in arms back in 2007 when smoking was banned almost
everywhere.

They've certainly been blamed for it. However, the clubs haven't tried
to capitalise on the anti-smoking laws by trying to get more punters
into a more pleasant, smoke-free environment. In fact, clubs are their
own worst enemy - for example, many of them are opposed to allowing
children in, so that's immediately a big market for young couples (and
singles, come to that) lost.
--
Mike Fleming

Thank God. Shouldn't there be one social venue free of children?

[Derek Tearne]

Post by Larry Shaw
We have lost a lot of 'Pub' venues over here in the UK, closing at the rate
of 30 a week (yes) so the Pub bands are being hammered by those losses.

It's worse than that actually - more like 50 a week - or are you talking
about pubs that are music venues only?

Post by Larry Shaw
The
Country Music circuit is still fit and healthy but even then the
anti-smoking laws have cut attendance numbers and bar profits are way down.

There was an article on the BBC world service radio about pubs closing -
and they are closing at an unprecedented rate. Economic factors were
cited as the main reason - competition, increase in drinking at home
(increased availability of lower price alcohol from supermarkets),
increased taxation and regulatory compliance on pub owners, decrease in
overall alcohol consumption, recession and cultural change (local pubs
are being replaced by euro style cafe/bars and branded pugs).

The smoking ban wasn't even mentioned as a factor.

Googling on the topic is yet to reveal to me a single article suggesting
the smoking ban as a major factor - the few that do mention the smoking
ban do so as an afterthought.

The closing down of pubs (not all of which would have been venues for
live music) + the terrible regulations to do with live music over there
+ all the other factors that seem to be affecting live music around the
world must make it particularly grim to be a musician in britain at the
moment.

--- Derek

[Larry Shaw]

Well Derek,
Never believe the BBC - they are very much against live music anyway (unless
it's Jazz, Asian, Folk or big 'show' stuff; we don't even have a weekly
popular music show anymore!
As far as numbers are concerned i am going on an LVA reprt from about this
time last year.

Post by Derek Tearne

Post by Larry Shaw
We have lost a lot of 'Pub' venues over here in the UK, closing at the rate
of 30 a week (yes) so the Pub bands are being hammered by those losses.

It's worse than that actually - more like 50 a week - or are you talking
about pubs that are music venues only?

Post by Larry Shaw
The
Country Music circuit is still fit and healthy but even then the
anti-smoking laws have cut attendance numbers and bar profits are way down.

There was an article on the BBC world service radio about pubs closing -
and they are closing at an unprecedented rate. Economic factors were
cited as the main reason - competition, increase in drinking at home
(increased availability of lower price alcohol from supermarkets),
increased taxation and regulatory compliance on pub owners, decrease in
overall alcohol consumption, recession and cultural change (local pubs
are being replaced by euro style cafe/bars and branded pugs).
The smoking ban wasn't even mentioned as a factor.
Googling on the topic is yet to reveal to me a single article suggesting
the smoking ban as a major factor - the few that do mention the smoking
ban do so as an afterthought.
The closing down of pubs (not all of which would have been venues for
live music) + the terrible regulations to do with live music over there
+ all the other factors that seem to be affecting live music around the
world must make it particularly grim to be a musician in britain at the
moment.
--- Derek
--
Vitamin S - improvisation from Aotearoa/New Zealand
http://www.vitamin-s.co.nz/

[Les Cargill]

Post by js
So tomorrow (today?) I have a 4 gig 2 hours away that STARTS at noon. That
means I need to leave here by atleast 9:30AM to get there on time. Now, I
haven't seen 9:30 AM in years...My post time alone should tell you that
The money? eh... If it were any other time, I'd have said forget it.
However, this has been the most brutal summer I can remember, at least since
I left Buffalo 15 years ago.
Outside of my steady church gig, my monthly fusion gig and a few other gigs
that have dribbled in, there is NOTHING happening.
The even sadder thing is that when I talk to other full timers, I am in even
BETTER shape than they are. Even so, I take pretty much whatever comes in
these days, no matter how far away. Reminds me of my apprentice days when
would drive 3 hours there and back to net 20 bucks.
I'm not holding out much hope for the fall either, let alone New Year's. I
may actually go home and get piss drunk this year rather than gig.
You?

There's talk that one of the old standby places around here, a place
that would book for $250 plus a tab, is down to $100 for a full band.

In 2006, people were steadily gettin' $400 for a full band.

--
Les Cargill

[BW]

Post by Les Cargill

Post by js
So tomorrow (today?) I have a 4 gig 2 hours away that STARTS at noon. That
means I need to leave here by atleast 9:30AM to get there on time. Now, I
haven't seen 9:30 AM in years...My post time alone should tell you that
The money? eh... If it were any other time, I'd have said forget it.
However, this has been the most brutal summer I can remember, at least since
I left Buffalo 15 years ago.
Outside of my steady church gig, my monthly fusion gig and a few other gigs
that have dribbled in, there is NOTHING happening.
The even sadder thing is that when I talk to other full timers, I am in even
BETTER shape than they are. Even so, I take pretty much whatever comes in
these days, no matter how far away. Reminds me of my apprentice days when
would drive 3 hours there and back to net 20 bucks.
I'm not holding out much hope for the fall either, let alone New Year's. I
may actually go home and get piss drunk this year rather than gig.
You?

There's talk that one of the old standby places around here, a place
that would book for $250 plus a tab, is down to $100 for a full band.
In 2006, people were steadily gettin' $400 for a full band.
--
Les Cargill

In NY, where I gig a lot, the smoking ban was "welcomed" with cries of
"We'll be out of business" by the club owners.

Guess what? It took a while, and there was a drop in the interim, but
business came back and was better than it was before the ban (this all
happened before the recession, so the effect of that is real and more
recent). I don't have to breathe second hand smoke, and come home not
stinking. Even the bar owners have had to admit it. Last night's gig
- very large crowd, clean air (except for the lousy fills from the
drummer), and lots of people outside smoking their guts out. Then they
come back in and make the register ring again.

I'm thrilled with the smoking ban.

[Les Cargill]

Post by BW

Post by Les Cargill

Post by js
So tomorrow (today?) I have a 4 gig 2 hours away that STARTS at noon. That
means I need to leave here by atleast 9:30AM to get there on time. Now, I
haven't seen 9:30 AM in years...My post time alone should tell you that
The money? eh... If it were any other time, I'd have said forget it.
However, this has been the most brutal summer I can remember, at least since
I left Buffalo 15 years ago.
Outside of my steady church gig, my monthly fusion gig and a few other gigs
that have dribbled in, there is NOTHING happening.
The even sadder thing is that when I talk to other full timers, I am in even
BETTER shape than they are. Even so, I take pretty much whatever comes in
these days, no matter how far away. Reminds me of my apprentice days when
would drive 3 hours there and back to net 20 bucks.
I'm not holding out much hope for the fall either, let alone New Year's. I
may actually go home and get piss drunk this year rather than gig.
You?

There's talk that one of the old standby places around here, a place
that would book for $250 plus a tab, is down to $100 for a full band.
In 2006, people were steadily gettin' $400 for a full band.
--
Les Cargill

In NY, where I gig a lot, the smoking ban was "welcomed" with cries of
"We'll be out of business" by the club owners.
Guess what? It took a while, and there was a drop in the interim, but
business came back and was better than it was before the ban (this all
happened before the recession, so the effect of that is real and more
recent). I don't have to breathe second hand smoke, and come home not
stinking. Even the bar owners have had to admit it. Last night's gig
- very large crowd, clean air (except for the lousy fills from the
drummer), and lots of people outside smoking their guts out. Then they
come back in and make the register ring again.
I'm thrilled with the smoking ban.

I'm just glad it did not have the predicted effect - assuming it
didn't. And, then again, NYC will probably be different than
other places.

I know for a fact that one place here got hit hard by the smoking
ban. It just worked out that way. Other places weren't so affected.
There was a passage of months between the bans and the recession,
so it's pretty clear which caused what.

Don't get me wrong - smoking bans are stupid. I'm just
glad the damage was minimal.

--
Les Cargill

[DGDevin]

Post by BW
In NY, where I gig a lot, the smoking ban was "welcomed" with cries of
"We'll be out of business" by the club owners.
Guess what? It took a while, and there was a drop in the interim, but
business came back and was better than it was before the ban (this all
happened before the recession, so the effect of that is real and more
recent). I don't have to breathe second hand smoke, and come home not
stinking. Even the bar owners have had to admit it. Last night's gig
- very large crowd, clean air (except for the lousy fills from the
drummer), and lots of people outside smoking their guts out. Then they
come back in and make the register ring again.
I'm thrilled with the smoking ban.

Our next door neighbor owns a successful club and his view is the smoking
ban did no lasting damage to well-run venues, the ones it hurt were going to
have trouble anyway. The places my wife and I often patronize adjusted just
as any well-run business adjusts to changing circumstances--they set up
smoking patios outside even if that meant putting in an extra door, they
brought in better food, they opened up the range of acts they booked and so
on. However it sounds like in the UK the govt. is trying many new and
exciting ways to kill live music, so it seems unlikely a smoking ban will be
the coup de grâce.

[JoeSpareBedroom]

Post by Les Cargill

Post by js
So tomorrow (today?) I have a 4 gig 2 hours away that STARTS at noon. That
means I need to leave here by atleast 9:30AM to get there on time. Now, I
haven't seen 9:30 AM in years...My post time alone should tell you that
The money? eh... If it were any other time, I'd have said forget it.
However, this has been the most brutal summer I can remember, at least since
I left Buffalo 15 years ago.
Outside of my steady church gig, my monthly fusion gig and a few other gigs
that have dribbled in, there is NOTHING happening.
The even sadder thing is that when I talk to other full timers, I am in even
BETTER shape than they are. Even so, I take pretty much whatever comes in
these days, no matter how far away. Reminds me of my apprentice days when
would drive 3 hours there and back to net 20 bucks.
I'm not holding out much hope for the fall either, let alone New Year's. I
may actually go home and get piss drunk this year rather than gig.
You?

There's talk that one of the old standby places around here, a place
that would book for $250 plus a tab, is down to $100 for a full band.
In 2006, people were steadily gettin' $400 for a full band.
--
Les Cargill

Sounds like Rochester NY. All of a sudden, I'm hearing "I'll book you when
you're at $200 like everyone else I hire." A couple of owners are just using
"the economy" as an excuse, though, especially at two places that do big
dinner business. The bartenders tell me the registers are just as full of
money as they were in past years.

[JimmyM]

Post by js
So tomorrow (today?) I have a 4 gig 2 hours away that STARTS at noon. That
means I need to leave here by atleast 9:30AM to get there on time. Now, I
haven't seen 9:30 AM in years...My post time alone should tell you that
The money? eh... If it were any other time, I'd have said forget it.
However, this has been the most brutal summer I can remember, at least since
I left Buffalo 15 years ago.
Outside of my steady church gig, my monthly fusion gig and a few other gigs
that have dribbled in, there is NOTHING happening.
The even sadder thing is that when I talk to other full timers, I am in even
BETTER shape than they are. Even so, I take pretty much whatever comes in
these days, no matter how far away. Reminds me of my apprentice days when
would drive 3 hours there and back to net 20 bucks.
I'm not holding out much hope for the fall either, let alone New Year's. I
may actually go home and get piss drunk this year rather than gig.
You?

I'm going in cycles. August is kickass. September is decent. June
and July kind of sucked, especially July.

[js]

I was OK, not great right up until June, then it's like someone slammed on
the brakes.

What's been killing me is the total lack of corporate and private work. I
used to do 2-3 nice paying jobs a month, and the rest of my calendar was
gravy.

I've done ONE wedding this entire season, and a few other private gigs,
mostly driving out to East Jesus. Apparently, everyone is opting for solo
piano or DJ instead of a band.

Post by JimmyM

Post by js
So tomorrow (today?) I have a 4 gig 2 hours away that STARTS at noon. That
means I need to leave here by atleast 9:30AM to get there on time. Now, I
haven't seen 9:30 AM in years...My post time alone should tell you that
The money? eh... If it were any other time, I'd have said forget it.
However, this has been the most brutal summer I can remember, at least since
I left Buffalo 15 years ago.
Outside of my steady church gig, my monthly fusion gig and a few other gigs
that have dribbled in, there is NOTHING happening.
The even sadder thing is that when I talk to other full timers, I am in even
BETTER shape than they are. Even so, I take pretty much whatever comes in
these days, no matter how far away. Reminds me of my apprentice days when
would drive 3 hours there and back to net 20 bucks.
I'm not holding out much hope for the fall either, let alone New Year's. I
may actually go home and get piss drunk this year rather than gig.
You?

I'm going in cycles. August is kickass. September is decent. June
and July kind of sucked, especially July.

[JimmyM]

Post by js
I was OK, not great right up until June, then it's like someone slammed on
the brakes.
What's been killing me is the total lack of corporate and private work. I
used to do 2-3 nice paying jobs a month, and the rest of my calendar was
gravy.

Same here. Just about all my fill-in work was corporate, and that's
dried up almost completely. But Bowzer's been stepping up his
bookings, so that's helped.

Post by js
I've done ONE wedding this entire season, and a few other private gigs,
mostly driving out to East Jesus. Apparently, everyone is opting for solo
piano or DJ instead of a band.

Ya, it's funny...they think nothing of paying $1000 for a DJ, but put
that same $1000 toward a band and people think they're getting ripped
off. Oh yeah, I forgot...the DJ brings goofy paper hats and
inflatable guitars and doesn't complain about having to play the
Chicken Dance. That's worth it.

Post by js

Post by JimmyM

Post by js
So tomorrow (today?) I have a 4 gig 2 hours away that STARTS at noon.

That

Post by JimmyM

Post by js
means I need to leave here by atleast 9:30AM to get there on time. Now,

I

Post by JimmyM

Post by js
haven't seen 9:30 AM in years...My post time alone should tell you that
The money? eh... If it were any other time, I'd have said forget it.
However, this has been the most brutal summer I can remember, at least

since

Post by JimmyM

Post by js
I left Buffalo 15 years ago.
Outside of my steady church gig, my monthly fusion gig and a few other

gigs

Post by JimmyM

Post by js
that have dribbled in, there is NOTHING happening.
The even sadder thing is that when I talk to other full timers, I am in

even

Post by JimmyM

Post by js
BETTER shape than they are. Even so, I take pretty much whatever comes in
these days, no matter how far away. Reminds me of my apprentice days when
would drive 3 hours there and back to net 20 bucks.
I'm not holding out much hope for the fall either, let alone New Year's.

I

Post by JimmyM

Post by js
may actually go home and get piss drunk this year rather than gig.
You?

I'm going in cycles. August is kickass. September is decent. June
and July kind of sucked, especially July.

[BW]

Post by JimmyM

Post by js
I was OK, not great right up until June, then it's like someone slammed on
the brakes.
What's been killing me is the total lack of corporate and private work. I
used to do 2-3 nice paying jobs a month, and the rest of my calendar was
gravy.

Same here. Just about all my fill-in work was corporate, and that's
dried up almost completely. But Bowzer's been stepping up his
bookings, so that's helped.

Post by js
I've done ONE wedding this entire season, and a few other private gigs,
mostly driving out to East Jesus. Apparently, everyone is opting for solo
piano or DJ instead of a band.

Ya, it's funny...they think nothing of paying $1000 for a DJ, but put
that same $1000 toward a band and people think they're getting ripped
off. Oh yeah, I forgot...the DJ brings goofy paper hats and
inflatable guitars and doesn't complain about having to play the
Chicken Dance. That's worth it.

Post by js

Post by JimmyM

Post by js
So tomorrow (today?) I have a 4 gig 2 hours away that STARTS at noon.

That

Post by JimmyM

Post by js
means I need to leave here by atleast 9:30AM to get there on time. Now,

I

Post by JimmyM

Post by js
haven't seen 9:30 AM in years...My post time alone should tell you that
The money? eh... If it were any other time, I'd have said forget it.
However, this has been the most brutal summer I can remember, at least

since

Post by JimmyM

Post by js
I left Buffalo 15 years ago.
Outside of my steady church gig, my monthly fusion gig and a few other

gigs

Post by JimmyM

Post by js
that have dribbled in, there is NOTHING happening.
The even sadder thing is that when I talk to other full timers, I am in

even

Post by JimmyM

Post by js
BETTER shape than they are. Even so, I take pretty much whatever comes in
these days, no matter how far away. Reminds me of my apprentice days when
would drive 3 hours there and back to net 20 bucks.
I'm not holding out much hope for the fall either, let alone New Year's.

I

Post by JimmyM

Post by js
may actually go home and get piss drunk this year rather than gig.
You?

I'm going in cycles. August is kickass. September is decent. June
and July kind of sucked, especially July.

I've worked for a bandleader who also brought the paper hats and goofy
extras, and frankly, I support the effort. If it books gigs, and I can
step off stage or use an alias (and the check doesn't bounce), I'll
even help load in the hula hoops. (Yes, he brought them, too).

The DJs ARE a problem. There are catering halls in my area that hold 6
affairs in different ballrooms simultaneously. In the old days when I
was on a break I'd walk around and say hi to other bands, colleagues.
Network, etc. Now when I walk around in these places 4 out of 6 rooms
(or more) have DJs.

Change of topic:
At the risk of opening an old debate (ignore if you wish), the smoking
ban is wonderful. I don't get your crap in my lungs, I don't pay taxes
to fund your cancer treatment after your money runs out and you're on
medicaid, and my clothing and gear doesn't stink. Don't tell me it's a
matter of freedom - it's not freedom when your voluntary habit
(addiction) adversely affects me. Just one man's opinion.

[fourstring]

Just a word or three in the defense of smokers of an age.

I hit 65 last week. I started smoking at 13.
In our generation you were regarded as an
oddball...almost a Billy-no-mates if you didn't
smoke. Doctors recommended smoking in pregnancy
as an antiseptic (there's a Public Information film
from the '50s on the subject) and also advised smoking
if going on a long car journey as it suppressed kidney
function....no motorway service stations in those days.
Everyone smoked in the movies and cig advertising
was everywhere...I was in hospital when I was 16 and
every bed had an ashtray. No such thing as a smoking ban
in public places....except on stage on gigs!
No wonder we all smoked.
Now...there is no excuse. I quit years ago and fully
agree with the ban which hasn't affected the gig scene
that much compared to the stupid UK anti-music law and
the recession.
The irony is that there were more gigs around than bands,
everyone was working and just about everyone smoked.
How times have changed.
--
Clive Norris
Managing Director
Selectron (UK) Ltd
www.espguitars.co.uk
www.skullstrings.com
www.espshop.co.uk
www.mightymite.com
www.coreoneproduct.com
www.emgpickups.co.uk
www.tube-shop.com
www.whirlwindusa.com
"They laughed at Newton,
they laughed at Einstein,
but they also laughed at
Bozo the Clown."
Carl Sagan

Post by BW

Post by JimmyM

Post by js
I was OK, not great right up until June, then it's like someone slammed on
the brakes.
What's been killing me is the total lack of corporate and private work. I
used to do 2-3 nice paying jobs a month, and the rest of my calendar was
gravy.

Same here. Just about all my fill-in work was corporate, and that's
dried up almost completely. But Bowzer's been stepping up his
bookings, so that's helped.

Post by js
I've done ONE wedding this entire season, and a few other private gigs,
mostly driving out to East Jesus. Apparently, everyone is opting for solo
piano or DJ instead of a band.

Ya, it's funny...they think nothing of paying $1000 for a DJ, but put
that same $1000 toward a band and people think they're getting ripped
off. Oh yeah, I forgot...the DJ brings goofy paper hats and
inflatable guitars and doesn't complain about having to play the
Chicken Dance. That's worth it.

Post by js

Post by JimmyM

Post by js
So tomorrow (today?) I have a 4 gig 2 hours away that STARTS at noon.

That

Post by JimmyM

Post by js
means I need to leave here by atleast 9:30AM to get there on time. Now,

I

Post by JimmyM

Post by js
haven't seen 9:30 AM in years...My post time alone should tell you that
The money? eh... If it were any other time, I'd have said forget it.
However, this has been the most brutal summer I can remember, at least

since

Post by JimmyM

Post by js
I left Buffalo 15 years ago.
Outside of my steady church gig, my monthly fusion gig and a few other

gigs

Post by JimmyM

Post by js
that have dribbled in, there is NOTHING happening.
The even sadder thing is that when I talk to other full timers, I am in

even

Post by JimmyM

Post by js
BETTER shape than they are. Even so, I take pretty much whatever comes in
these days, no matter how far away. Reminds me of my apprentice days when
would drive 3 hours there and back to net 20 bucks.
I'm not holding out much hope for the fall either, let alone New Year's.

I

Post by JimmyM

Post by js
may actually go home and get piss drunk this year rather than gig.
You?

I'm going in cycles. August is kickass. September is decent. June
and July kind of sucked, especially July.

I've worked for a bandleader who also brought the paper hats and goofy
extras, and frankly, I support the effort. If it books gigs, and I can
step off stage or use an alias (and the check doesn't bounce), I'll
even help load in the hula hoops. (Yes, he brought them, too).
The DJs ARE a problem. There are catering halls in my area that hold 6
affairs in different ballrooms simultaneously. In the old days when I
was on a break I'd walk around and say hi to other bands, colleagues.
Network, etc. Now when I walk around in these places 4 out of 6 rooms
(or more) have DJs.
At the risk of opening an old debate (ignore if you wish), the smoking
ban is wonderful. I don't get your crap in my lungs, I don't pay taxes
to fund your cancer treatment after your money runs out and you're on
medicaid, and my clothing and gear doesn't stink. Don't tell me it's a
matter of freedom - it's not freedom when your voluntary habit
(addiction) adversely affects me. Just one man's opinion.

[Todd H.]

Post by BW
At the risk of opening an old debate (ignore if you wish), the smoking
ban is wonderful. I don't get your crap in my lungs,

I agree.

Post by BW
I don't pay taxes to fund your cancer treatment after your money
runs out and you're on medicaid,

As appealing as this seemed to me too, the merits of this argument
actually got the wind (ahem) knocked out of it somewhat this past year
where it turned out smokers do us a favor by living a lot less longer
than non smokers. Apparently the medicaid effect thereby nulls it out
from the cost perspective. Sorry I don't have a cite, but it was
fairly widely reported. I think I heard it on NPR.

Post by BW
and my clothing and gear doesn't stink.

Totally agreed. Soooo nice not to have to unload the vehicle the same
night I drive home and febreeze the hell out of everything just to
avoid the car smelling like an ashtray.

Post by BW
Don't tell me it's a matter of freedom - it's not freedom when your
voluntary habit (addiction) adversely affects me. Just one man's
opinion.

Affects me or my family, the extended piece of which is extremely
allergic to cigarette smoke even in trace/residual amounts.

Inhale all ya want. If only the exhaling could be averted, there
wouldn't be a problem. :-) I think Gallagher did a piece on "if
drinkers were like smokers" that involved a lot of spitting all over
the front rows.

[j***@gmail.com]

Post by BW

Post by JimmyM

Post by js
I was OK, not great right up until June, then it's like someone slammed on
the brakes.
What's been killing me is the total lack of corporate and private work. I
used to do 2-3 nice paying jobs a month, and the rest of my calendar was
gravy.

Same here. Just about all my fill-in work was corporate, and that's
dried up almost completely. But Bowzer's been stepping up his
bookings, so that's helped.

Post by js
I've done ONE wedding this entire season, and a few other private gigs,
mostly driving out to East Jesus. Apparently, everyone is opting for solo
piano or DJ instead of a band.

Ya, it's funny...they think nothing of paying $1000 for a DJ, but put
that same $1000 toward a band and people think they're getting ripped
off. Oh yeah, I forgot...the DJ brings goofy paper hats and
inflatable guitars and doesn't complain about having to play the
Chicken Dance. That's worth it.

Post by js

Post by JimmyM

Post by js
So tomorrow (today?) I have a 4 gig 2 hours away that STARTS at noon.

That

Post by JimmyM

Post by js
means I need to leave here by atleast 9:30AM to get there on time. Now,

I

Post by JimmyM

Post by js
haven't seen 9:30 AM in years...My post time alone should tell you that
The money? eh... If it were any other time, I'd have said forget it.
However, this has been the most brutal summer I can remember, at least

since

Post by JimmyM

Post by js
I left Buffalo 15 years ago.
Outside of my steady church gig, my monthly fusion gig and a few other

gigs

Post by JimmyM

Post by js
that have dribbled in, there is NOTHING happening.
The even sadder thing is that when I talk to other full timers, I am in

even

Post by JimmyM

Post by js
BETTER shape than they are. Even so, I take pretty much whatever comes in
these days, no matter how far away. Reminds me of my apprentice days when
would drive 3 hours there and back to net 20 bucks.
I'm not holding out much hope for the fall either, let alone New Year's.

I

Post by JimmyM

Post by js
may actually go home and get piss drunk this year rather than gig.
You?

I'm going in cycles. August is kickass. September is decent. June
and July kind of sucked, especially July.

I've worked for a bandleader who also brought the paper hats and goofy
extras, and frankly, I support the effort. If it books gigs, and I can
step off stage or use an alias (and the check doesn't bounce), I'll
even help load in the hula hoops. (Yes, he brought them, too).
The DJs ARE a problem. There are catering halls in my area that hold 6
affairs in different ballrooms simultaneously. In the old days when I
was on a break I'd walk around and say hi to other bands, colleagues.
Network, etc. Now when I walk around in these places 4 out of 6 rooms
(or more) have DJs.
At the risk of opening an old debate (ignore if you wish), the smoking
ban is wonderful. I don't get your crap in my lungs, I don't pay taxes
to fund your cancer treatment after your money runs out and you're on
medicaid, and my clothing and gear doesn't stink. Don't tell me it's a
matter of freedom - it's not freedom when your voluntary habit
(addiction) adversely affects me. Just one man's opinion.

Bowzer from Sha-Na-Na? When he performs, does he mention how his Hollywood Squares was the only honest version?

[t***@gmail.com]

Post by BW

Post by JimmyM

Post by js
I was OK, not great right up until June, then it's like someone slammed on
the brakes.
What's been killing me is the total lack of corporate and private work. I
used to do 2-3 nice paying jobs a month, and the rest of my calendar was
gravy.

Same here. Just about all my fill-in work was corporate, and that's
dried up almost completely. But Bowzer's been stepping up his
bookings, so that's helped.

Post by js
I've done ONE wedding this entire season, and a few other private gigs,
mostly driving out to East Jesus. Apparently, everyone is opting for solo
piano or DJ instead of a band.

Ya, it's funny...they think nothing of paying $1000 for a DJ, but put
that same $1000 toward a band and people think they're getting ripped
off. Oh yeah, I forgot...the DJ brings goofy paper hats and
inflatable guitars and doesn't complain about having to play the
Chicken Dance. That's worth it.

Post by js

Post by JimmyM

Post by js
So tomorrow (today?) I have a 4 gig 2 hours away that STARTS at noon.

That

Post by JimmyM

Post by js
means I need to leave here by atleast 9:30AM to get there on time. Now,

I

Post by JimmyM

Post by js
haven't seen 9:30 AM in years...My post time alone should tell you that
The money? eh... If it were any other time, I'd have said forget it.
However, this has been the most brutal summer I can remember, at least

since

Post by JimmyM

Post by js
I left Buffalo 15 years ago.
Outside of my steady church gig, my monthly fusion gig and a few other

gigs

Post by JimmyM

Post by js
that have dribbled in, there is NOTHING happening.
The even sadder thing is that when I talk to other full timers, I am in

even

Post by JimmyM

Post by js
BETTER shape than they are. Even so, I take pretty much whatever comes in
these days, no matter how far away. Reminds me of my apprentice days when
would drive 3 hours there and back to net 20 bucks.
I'm not holding out much hope for the fall either, let alone New Year's.

I

Post by JimmyM

Post by js
may actually go home and get piss drunk this year rather than gig.
You?

I'm going in cycles. August is kickass. September is decent. June
and July kind of sucked, especially July.

I've worked for a bandleader who also brought the paper hats and goofy
extras, and frankly, I support the effort. If it books gigs, and I can
step off stage or use an alias (and the check doesn't bounce), I'll
even help load in the hula hoops. (Yes, he brought them, too).
The DJs ARE a problem. There are catering halls in my area that hold 6
affairs in different ballrooms simultaneously. In the old days when I
was on a break I'd walk around and say hi to other bands, colleagues.
Network, etc. Now when I walk around in these places 4 out of 6 rooms
(or more) have DJs.
At the risk of opening an old debate (ignore if you wish), the smoking
ban is wonderful. I don't get your crap in my lungs, I don't pay taxes
to fund your cancer treatment after your money runs out and you're on
medicaid, and my clothing and gear doesn't stink. Don't tell me it's a
matter of freedom - it's not freedom when your voluntary habit
(addiction) adversely affects me. Just one man's opinion.

Bowzer from Sha-Na-Na? When he performs, does he mention how his Hollywood Squares was the only honest version?

............


Bowser and sha na na. I haven’t thought of them in ages. If they’re still together I doubt if I’d like them today. I really didn’t like em then.

YMMV

[Steve Freides]

Post by js
So tomorrow (today?) I have a 4 gig 2 hours away that STARTS at noon. That
means I need to leave here by atleast 9:30AM to get there on time. Now, I
haven't seen 9:30 AM in years...My post time alone should tell you that
The money? eh... If it were any other time, I'd have said forget it.
However, this has been the most brutal summer I can remember, at least since
I left Buffalo 15 years ago.
Outside of my steady church gig, my monthly fusion gig and a few other gigs
that have dribbled in, there is NOTHING happening.
The even sadder thing is that when I talk to other full timers, I am in even
BETTER shape than they are. Even so, I take pretty much whatever comes in
these days, no matter how far away. Reminds me of my apprentice days when
would drive 3 hours there and back to net 20 bucks.
I'm not holding out much hope for the fall either, let alone New Year's. I
may actually go home and get piss drunk this year rather than gig.
You?

FWIW, enrollment at my community college was up 10% last year, and is
apparently up 15-20% further for Fall, 2009 - and that includes music
courses. If you haven't looked into it already, you might see about
teaching college part-time. At least at the community college level, it
is definitely a growth industry around here.

-S-

[sln]

Post by Steve Freides
FWIW, enrollment at my community college was up 10% last year, and is
apparently up 15-20% further for Fall, 2009 - and that includes music
courses. If you haven't looked into it already, you might see about
teaching college part-time. At least at the community college level, it
is definitely a growth industry around here.
-S-

This echoes my wife's experience lately. She was pretty busy through
the summer when usually things slack off for vacation time. Now, her
Fall schedule is full to the brim with private voice students, she's
added more teaching hours to her schedule, and still has more
prospective students asking for time.

sln

[js]

I don't know when this thread turned into a coffee klatch about smoking, but
since we don't have a ban here until January, I'd say that's not it. Plus
I've done mostly private"casuals" work for the last few years, where smoking
is not an issue.

As for smoking: I'm not a smoker, but I'm not a fan of legislating behavior
either. And you ARE aware that Big Pharm and insurance cos. like Pfizer are
happily writing checks to push for anti-smoking regulations, right? All the
better to sell Nicorette patches and reduce the actuarial risk tables by
.01%. Not that it matters to the anti smoking zealots, who have adopter the
Machiavellian "enemy of my enemy" philosophy.

Hell, next thing you know, people will be complaining that there are too
many drunks in bars, and want to ban alcohol. I can seriously envision a
world not to long form now where dopes will walk into fake "British Pub"
chains and drink alcohol free beer and mock whiskey while throwing foam
tipped nerf darts and settling for a Quiz Night where the questions are so
easy that "everyone's a winner"! Maybe they'll hire actors to stage a bar
brawl once or twice a night for "authenticity"

You walk into a bar, you know what you're getting into. Deal with it. Don't
like it? Play weddings. It's the pussyification of the world, I tell ya...

Post by js
So tomorrow (today?) I have a 4 gig 2 hours away that STARTS at noon. That
means I need to leave here by atleast 9:30AM to get there on time. Now, I
haven't seen 9:30 AM in years...My post time alone should tell you that
The money? eh... If it were any other time, I'd have said forget it.
However, this has been the most brutal summer I can remember, at least since
I left Buffalo 15 years ago.
Outside of my steady church gig, my monthly fusion gig and a few other gigs
that have dribbled in, there is NOTHING happening.
The even sadder thing is that when I talk to other full timers, I am in even
BETTER shape than they are. Even so, I take pretty much whatever comes in
these days, no matter how far away. Reminds me of my apprentice days when
would drive 3 hours there and back to net 20 bucks.
I'm not holding out much hope for the fall either, let alone New Year's. I
may actually go home and get piss drunk this year rather than gig.
You?

[mcnewsxp]

Post by js
I don't know when this thread turned into a coffee klatch about smoking, but
since we don't have a ban here until January, I'd say that's not it. Plus
I've done mostly private"casuals" work for the last few years, where smoking
is not an issue.
As for smoking: I'm not a smoker, but I'm not a fan of legislating behavior
either. And you ARE aware that Big Pharm and insurance cos. like Pfizer are
happily writing checks to push for anti-smoking regulations, right? All the
better to sell Nicorette patches and reduce the actuarial risk tables by
.01%. Not that it matters to the anti smoking zealots, who have adopter the
Machiavellian "enemy of my enemy" philosophy.
Hell, next thing you know, people will be complaining that there are too
many drunks in bars, and want to ban alcohol. I can seriously envision a
world not to long form now where dopes will walk into fake "British Pub"
chains and drink alcohol free beer and mock whiskey while throwing foam
tipped nerf darts and settling for a Quiz Night where the questions are so
easy that  "everyone's a winner"! Maybe they'll hire actors to stage a bar
brawl once or twice a night for "authenticity"
You walk into a bar, you know what you're getting into. Deal with it. Don't
like it? Play weddings.  It's the pussyification of the world, I tell ya...

you're only too right, js

[John (NJ)]

Post by js
As for smoking: I'm not a smoker, but I'm not a fan of legislating behavior
either. And you ARE aware that Big Pharm and insurance cos. like Pfizer are
happily writing checks to push for anti-smoking regulations, right? All the
better to sell Nicorette patches and reduce the actuarial risk tables by
.01%. Not that it matters to the anti smoking zealots, who have adopter the
Machiavellian "enemy of my enemy" philosophy.

Are you saying that because Pfizer could make money selling a product
that helps people quit smoking it's therefore bad? To take it to the
exteme level of the rest of your post (below), if Nicorette works and
all smokers use it and quit then demand for the product will dry up,
it will no longer be profitable and Pfizer will have to make a living
elsewhere.

Post by js
Hell, next thing you know, people will be complaining that there are too
many drunks in bars, and want to ban alcohol. I can seriously envision a
world not to long form now where dopes will walk into fake "British Pub"
chains and drink alcohol free beer and mock whiskey while throwing foam
tipped nerf darts and settling for a Quiz Night where the questions are so
easy that �"everyone's a winner"! Maybe they'll hire actors to stage a bar
brawl once or twice a night for "authenticity"

You may imagine this scenerio, but such extremes don't exist.

Post by js
You walk into a bar, you know what you're getting into.

Not really. I've played in many different types of establishments,
all of which call themselves "bars." Some we referred to as "Park-and-
Punches," bars where we expected at least one fight per night. We
worked hard to get out of those dumps and book nicer rooms. I've
noticed that the rooms we play that charge $4.50 to $5.50 for a pint
of beer don't have bar fights, clean their restrooms and pay the bands
more. That's where we book.

Post by js
Deal with it. Don't like it? Play weddings. �It's the pussyification of the world, I tell ya...

Not wanting to breath in shitty, smoke-filled air is hardly the
pussyfication of anything. Non-smokers have had to "deal with it" for
years. The tide has turned. Deal with it.

In NJ every bar owner I know loves the smoking ban. The smarter ones
set up outdoor smoking areas complete with heaters and some sort of
cover. Some have even set up separate outdoor bars with TVs, jukebox
and wait service. They made a small investment to make sure everybody
feels welcome in their establishment.

[Les Cargill]

Post by John (NJ)

Post by js
As for smoking: I'm not a smoker, but I'm not a fan of legislating behavior
either. And you ARE aware that Big Pharm and insurance cos. like Pfizer are
happily writing checks to push for anti-smoking regulations, right? All the
better to sell Nicorette patches and reduce the actuarial risk tables by
.01%. Not that it matters to the anti smoking zealots, who have adopter the
Machiavellian "enemy of my enemy" philosophy.

Are you saying that because Pfizer could make money selling a product
that helps people quit smoking it's therefore bad? To take it to the
exteme level of the rest of your post (below), if Nicorette works and
all smokers use it and quit then demand for the product will dry up,
it will no longer be profitable and Pfizer will have to make a living
elsewhere.

Nicorette doesn't work, though. Not as a stop-smoking aid.

Post by John (NJ)

Post by js
Hell, next thing you know, people will be complaining that there are too
many drunks in bars, and want to ban alcohol. I can seriously envision a
world not to long form now where dopes will walk into fake "British Pub"
chains and drink alcohol free beer and mock whiskey while throwing foam
tipped nerf darts and settling for a Quiz Night where the questions are so
easy that �"everyone's a winner"! Maybe they'll hire actors to stage a bar
brawl once or twice a night for "authenticity"

You may imagine this scenerio, but such extremes don't exist.

Post by js
You walk into a bar, you know what you're getting into.

Not really. I've played in many different types of establishments,
all of which call themselves "bars." Some we referred to as "Park-and-
Punches," bars where we expected at least one fight per night. We
worked hard to get out of those dumps and book nicer rooms. I've
noticed that the rooms we play that charge $4.50 to $5.50 for a pint
of beer don't have bar fights, clean their restrooms and pay the bands
more. That's where we book.

But that's not really a bar. It's Disneyland with beer taps. This is
so very much exactly the point... when my parents stopped in Las
Vegas around 1970, *we could not go past a certain point in certain
buildings because we understood that adults were doing adult
things there*. But hey, don't let me get between Steve Wynn
and a buck...

People pay $5.50... for a *pint*??? And you're trying to say these
people aren't essentially yuppie scum? :) ( I keed - no offense,
five-fiddy? Sheesh. What's a cheap Scotch neat, $35?)

Fi-fiddy. Holy cow.

I paid that for a crappy Budweiser at the Bronco Bowl when I
saw Knopfler, but geez.... that's concert prices.

Times like this, I miss Hunter S. Thompson.

Post by John (NJ)

Post by js
Deal with it. Don't like it? Play weddings. �It's the pussyification of the world, I tell ya...

Not wanting to breath in shitty, smoke-filled air is hardly the
pussyfication of anything.

And again... just not going in was out of the question, right? Perhaps
starting an establishment that was nonsmoking, or habituating
one that was, was also apparently out of the question.

No, we must Go Get The Law, and *then* it'll all be okey dokey. Because
unless there's regulation of every aspect of human behavior, why....
we just can't have that, can we? It's be like letting kids play
in an unstructured manner, rather than having Little League
parents gettin' their rage on in the stands.

Somebody might actually spheckin' *enjoy* themselves, and...
that wouldn't be fair to the other children, would it?

Good thing Americans are good at taking orders, because
when the Chinese reposess the darned country, they won't
wanna have to say things twice, I tell ya.

Post by John (NJ)
Non-smokers have had to "deal with it" for
years. The tide has turned. Deal with it.

For what it is worth.... I have never personally been to a bar (
past age 18) when I wasn't booking it or playing it. I do not
personally understand why anybody ever goes to those places,
especially for live music. I don't do work happy hours, I might
play a party with people from work ( but probably not ) and
I certainly don't wanna hang out and watch 15,283 big screen TVs
with The Fuse.tv Network on 7,823 of them and whatever Albanian
soccer/cage matches on the rest.

The point is that it was a *public* place, where people could *do*
those sorts of things. And then "public interest" propagandists
decided to engineer public sentiment against it ( much as tobacco
advertising had engineered public sentiment *for* smoking).

So as long as we're clear on the fact that both sides are
mindless robots, pursuing their particular version of "stars
on thars", I'm good. It leaves all the synthetic moral outrage
in place to keep the useless debate going, which reinforces
each side's sense of self. After all, the Hearst-style "us
against them" thing is what it's all about, isn't it?

And if it gets real good, somebody throw a chair. Niiiiice.

Post by John (NJ)
In NJ every bar owner I know loves the smoking ban. The smarter ones
set up outdoor smoking areas complete with heaters and some sort of
cover. Some have even set up separate outdoor bars with TVs, jukebox
and wait service. They made a small investment to make sure everybody
feels welcome in their establishment.

And I am sure everybody will LIVE FOREVER! YAY! I won't be there,
because I friggin' hate bars. Unless I am playing in one. Which
probably is not going to happen much in the future, because
they're full of smug, self-important, health-obsessed douchebags,
when they're not populated with aging, degenerate alcoholics.

Maybe they should bring in stair machines, all connected to generators,
so the clubowner can sell some juice back to the network. I mean,
who has time to go to the gym, right? Probably get $5.50 a set for
the privilege of generating electricity.

Fi-fiddy. Yup.

--
Les Cargill

[John (NJ)]

Post by Les Cargill
Nicorette doesn't work, though. Not as a stop-smoking aid.

Can't blow bubbles with it either.

Post by Les Cargill
But that's not really a bar. It's Disneyland with beer taps. This is
so very much exactly the point... when my parents stopped in Las
Vegas around 1970, *we could not go past a certain point in certain
buildings because we understood that adults were doing adult
things there*. But hey, don't let me get between Steve Wynn
and a buck...

There appears to be more "adult" behavior in Vegas now than back in
the 70's when it was run by the mob.

Post by Les Cargill
People pay $5.50... for a *pint*??? And you're trying to say these
people aren't essentially yuppie scum? :) ( I keed - no offense,
five-fiddy? Sheesh. What's a cheap Scotch neat, $35?)
Fi-fiddy. Holy cow.

OK, to be fair I don't know what they charge for Bud or Coors Light
because I don't drink that swill. I'm sure it's less than the $4.50
Sam Adams or $5.50 microbrew. The bars I play are filled with a mix
of people, though few walk off the construction site and straight to
these bars (though I'm not there ar quiting time, so who knows?).

Post by Les Cargill
I paid that for a crappy Budweiser at the Bronco Bowl when I
saw Knopfler, but geez.... that's concert prices.

Concert prices around here are $6-$10 for a Bud. I don't buy anything
at concerts. I can live without a beer.

Post by Les Cargill

Post by John (NJ)
Not wanting to breath in shitty, smoke-filled air is hardly the
pussyfication of anything.

And again... just not going in was out of the question, right?

Not if I'd like to enjoy eating dinner out or have a gig to play.

Perhaps

Post by Les Cargill
starting an establishment that was nonsmoking, or habituating
one that was, was also apparently out of the question.

I play in a band - I don't run bars.

Post by Les Cargill
No, we must Go Get The Law, and *then* it'll all be okey dokey. Because
unless there's regulation of every aspect of human behavior, why....
we just can't have that, can we? It's be like letting kids play
in an unstructured manner, rather than having Little League
parents gettin' their rage on in the stands.
For what it is worth.... I have never personally been to a bar (
past age 18) �when I wasn't booking it or playing it. I do not
personally understand why anybody ever goes to those places,
especially for live music. I don't do work happy hours, I might
play a party with people from work ( but probably not ) and
I certainly don't wanna hang out and watch 15,283 big screen TVs
with The Fuse.tv Network on 7,823 of them and whatever Albanian
soccer/cage matches on the rest.
The point is that it was a *public* place, where people could *do*
those sorts of things. And then "public interest" propagandists
decided to engineer public sentiment against it ( much as tobacco
advertising had engineered public sentiment *for* smoking).

A bar/restaurant is NOT a public place, but rather a private
establishment that is subject to numerous regulations (drinking age,
sanitation, fire codes, insurance, etc.).

The law (at least in NJ) has nothing to do with smoking in public. NJ
banned smoking in the WORKPLACE. Years ago you couldn't work anyplace
that was smoke-free. I worked in a tiny office with four other people
- all of whom chain-smoked. It was tough on me, but I needed the job
so I suffered and went home smelling like an ashtray. My then-wife, an
ex-smoker, wouldn't go near me unless I showered after work. Then one
day the company VP made a visit and walked into a facefull of smoke
that was accidentally blown right in his face. He immediately
implemented a company smoking ban. A year or two later NJ made it a
state law but exempted bars and casinos. That law was challenged
because it was not applied to all businesses equally, as bars and
casinos were places of employment, too. So the law was expanded to
cover all workplaces except cigar bars (where the whole purpose of the
business was to smoke). The law was NOT aimed specifically at bars.

[Les Cargill]

Post by John (NJ)

Post by Les Cargill
Nicorette doesn't work, though. Not as a stop-smoking aid.

Can't blow bubbles with it either.

Damn straight you can't.

Post by John (NJ)

Post by Les Cargill
But that's not really a bar. It's Disneyland with beer taps. This is
so very much exactly the point... when my parents stopped in Las
Vegas around 1970, *we could not go past a certain point in certain
buildings because we understood that adults were doing adult
things there*. But hey, don't let me get between Steve Wynn
and a buck...

There appears to be more "adult" behavior in Vegas now than back in
the 70's when it was run by the mob.

Heheh. Yeah. Although ... it depends on what we mean by "adult",
doesn't it?

Post by John (NJ)

Post by Les Cargill
People pay $5.50... for a *pint*??? And you're trying to say these
people aren't essentially yuppie scum? :) ( I keed - no offense,
five-fiddy? Sheesh. What's a cheap Scotch neat, $35?)
Fi-fiddy. Holy cow.

OK, to be fair I don't know what they charge for Bud or Coors Light
because I don't drink that swill. I'm sure it's less than the $4.50
Sam Adams or $5.50 microbrew. The bars I play are filled with a mix
of people, though few walk off the construction site and straight to
these bars (though I'm not there ar quiting time, so who knows?).

You get my drift, though, no? I remember $0.50 pitchers
back in the day. Five bucks'd cover four people all night,
*well*.

Post by John (NJ)

Post by Les Cargill
I paid that for a crappy Budweiser at the Bronco Bowl when I
saw Knopfler, but geez.... that's concert prices.

Concert prices around here are $6-$10 for a Bud. I don't buy anything
at concerts. I can live without a beer.

Sure.

Post by John (NJ)

Post by Les Cargill

Post by John (NJ)
Not wanting to breath in shitty, smoke-filled air is hardly the
pussyfication of anything.

And again... just not going in was out of the question, right?

Not if I'd like to enjoy eating dinner out or have a gig to play.

Meh. That's partially the charm of it. I dunno - the smoke
was there when I got to playing in bars over thirty years ago.

I figure people wanted it that way.

When I finally graduated college, I put the bass under the bed
and did not open it again for about six to eight years.

When I did open it, the entrapped "bar smell" induced a reaction
like what you see on "Law and Order" when they find a ripe human body.

I did not notice this at the time I closed the case.

Post by John (NJ)
Perhaps

Post by Les Cargill
starting an establishment that was nonsmoking, or habituating
one that was, was also apparently out of the question.

I play in a band - I don't run bars.

I understand.

Post by John (NJ)

Post by Les Cargill
No, we must Go Get The Law, and *then* it'll all be okey dokey. Because
unless there's regulation of every aspect of human behavior, why....
we just can't have that, can we? It's be like letting kids play
in an unstructured manner, rather than having Little League
parents gettin' their rage on in the stands.
For what it is worth.... I have never personally been to a bar (
past age 18) �when I wasn't booking it or playing it. I do not
personally understand why anybody ever goes to those places,
especially for live music. I don't do work happy hours, I might
play a party with people from work ( but probably not ) and
I certainly don't wanna hang out and watch 15,283 big screen TVs
with The Fuse.tv Network on 7,823 of them and whatever Albanian
soccer/cage matches on the rest.
The point is that it was a *public* place, where people could *do*
those sorts of things. And then "public interest" propagandists
decided to engineer public sentiment against it ( much as tobacco
advertising had engineered public sentiment *for* smoking).

A bar/restaurant is NOT a public place, but rather a private
establishment that is subject to numerous regulations (drinking age,
sanitation, fire codes, insurance, etc.).

Regulation appeals to the *sense of being public*, not of being
private. And the standards in use are those of a public
nuisance, which was never met in any consistent manner
with respect to secondhand smoke.

Indeed, they did not make them smoke free for *you*, they did it
for the waitstaff, which you allude to next...

Post by John (NJ)
The law (at least in NJ) has nothing to do with smoking in public. NJ
banned smoking in the WORKPLACE. Years ago you couldn't work anyplace
that was smoke-free. I worked in a tiny office with four other people
- all of whom chain-smoked. It was tough on me, but I needed the job
so I suffered and went home smelling like an ashtray.

I can really sympathise, but it never bothered me because I
smoked back then. I enjoyed it immensely, too.

Post by John (NJ)
My then-wife, an
ex-smoker, wouldn't go near me unless I showered after work. Then one
day the company VP made a visit and walked into a facefull of smoke
that was accidentally blown right in his face. He immediately
implemented a company smoking ban.

Ah, the arbitrary exercise of executive power!

Post by John (NJ)
A year or two later NJ made it a
state law but exempted bars and casinos. That law was challenged
because it was not applied to all businesses equally, as bars and
casinos were places of employment, too. So the law was expanded to
cover all workplaces except cigar bars (where the whole purpose of the
business was to smoke). The law was NOT aimed specifically at bars.

This is 100% true. And that makes it all the sadder.

I had a great time, from about 1980 to 1985, in
bars, playing out. We shall not see its equal again.

--
Les Cargill

[Derek Tearne]

Post by Les Cargill
I had a great time, from about 1980 to 1985, in
bars, playing out. We shall not see its equal again.

I really don't understand how this can be a consequence of the smoking
ban.

Smoking is down to <20% of the population in most of the countries where
smoking bans are coming into force. The percentage of smokers in pretty
much all populations worldwide is decreasing. Much of this decrease has
happened in the last 20 years. It won't be that much longer before the
smoking population is effectively negligible - lets say another 10
years.

At that point the ban will have absolutely no effect on the viability of
bars or of playing in bars.

It's entirely possible that we'll never see the level of live playing in
bars that was normal in the 60's through to 80's - but the decline had
already started well before the smoking bans - and the current rapid
decline seems far more closely linked to the worldwide recession than
smoking bans.

--- Derek

[Les Cargill]

Derek Tearne wrote:

Derek, just musing a bit. There's a lot of
American-centric bias to what I'm saying here, so...

Post by Derek Tearne

Post by Les Cargill
I had a great time, from about 1980 to 1985, in
bars, playing out. We shall not see its equal again.

I really don't understand how this can be a consequence of the smoking
ban.
Smoking is down to <20% of the population in most of the countries where
smoking bans are coming into force. The percentage of smokers in pretty
much all populations worldwide is decreasing. Much of this decrease has
happened in the last 20 years. It won't be that much longer before the
smoking population is effectively negligible - lets say another 10
years.

It's been at or around 20% for a long time, but the data may be
getting noisier. There's a strong tobacco prohibitionism; those
tend to drive such behavior into darker corners. Hotels are
apparently going all nonsmoking ( which is fairly revolutionary ).

The economics of health care wrt smoking are very, very poorly
understood - a hardcore 2 packs a day for 40 years smoker
on average pays out 6:1 in sin taxes on anticipated costs.

The whole thing reminds me of the slapstick movie "The Road
to Wellville". There is this bizarro tendency to be Utopian
in America about these things.

Post by Derek Tearne
At that point the ban will have absolutely no effect on the viability of
bars or of playing in bars.

Clubowners have had this data for as long as you have. Why then did a
ban have to occur at all? I conclude that the majoritarian approach is
pretty much irrelevant. With ... what, millions? of bars in the US,
you'd think at least one person would have *tried* this.

If smoking was so awful, why is it that nonsmoking places of live music
were all but nonexistent? I don't think the "smoky ole honky tonk"
cliche is pure fiction. A long time ago, I thought that it had to
be part of the charm. Maybe that was wrong.

It may well be that people really did hate all the smoke, and the
PR surrounding the bans simply uncovered that, but I expect that the
rhetoric for the bans really did set a tone that was then followed.

Maybe nonsmoking venues were a product that people wanted all a long and
didn't know it. But you'd think some guy woulda tried it, y'know?

Post by Derek Tearne
It's entirely possible that we'll never see the level of live playing in
bars that was normal in the 60's through to 80's - but the decline had
already started well before the smoking bans - and the current rapid
decline seems far more closely linked to the worldwide recession than
smoking bans.

FWIW, I think the bans are not necessarily a cause of a decline in
live music. I think there is a common mentality behind both the
decline in live music and in smoking bans. This could be
as simple as people just having too many other distractions
available. It could be that disposable income is drying up
very rapidly. It could be that the big screen TV is just
easier ( and there's always a VH1 Rock Show live DVD thing
or movie available within a given week ).

But my money's on a sort of neo-Puritanism, founded in the
fact that a whooooole bunch of people live in a state of
escalating fear.

Maybe you had to be there, before and after the '80s S&L bust in
Oil Country. I have to wonder if every time the economy busts,
the fear doesn't get amplified a little, leading to more and more
of the neo-Puritanism. After all, all the hard partiers I
knew from my youth are either - literally - dead, or
"hooked on Jesus and high on (prescription) dope." I keep
turning them up, one by one. The moderate ones are mostly
entrepreneurs, did pretty good.

Gaaah. Enough amateur sociology for now. Truthfully, music as it
was from 1960-present had a lot of demographic and even
technological happy accidents behind it. There's no reason
to consider that *the* standard.

Post by Derek Tearne
--- Derek

--
Les Cargill

[Misifus]

Post by Les Cargill
It's been at or around 20% for a long time, but the data may be
getting noisier.

I don't know how long a "long time" is, but I've seen a noticeable
change in smoking behavior in the last 25 years. Twenty-five years ago,
when I began teaching, smoking was not only permitted, but was quite
common among the teachers. Walking into the teacher's lounge was to
enter a blue fog (yes, I was one of those responsible). However, it
wasn't just me, or just a few, most of the teachers smoked and those
that didn't, didn't complain.

Today, when my wife or I encounter a smoke filled situation, it is
uncommon and remarkable. Without being outright banned, smoking in
public is far less common than it was twenty-five years ago. I know
people who go outside of their own homes to smoke. (on the other hand,
there are communities which have tried to ban smoking outside one's house).

I'm not speaking of kids, for whom breaking the rules is a way of life,
I'm speaking of adults, far more of whom do not smoke today than in the
past. I know, I'm not quoting any statistics, just my personal
experience, but I can see the numbers are significantly lower than they
once were.

Among other things, cigarettes are much harder to get than they once
were. The ubiquitous vending machines are gone, and those stores that
sell them, make it more difficult to buy them. For example, at our
local Wal-mart, years ago, every checkout line had racks of tobacco
products available. Today, only one lane sells tobacco, yet all of the
other lanes are full and busy with folks who aren't buying tobacco.

Just some observations from an old observer.

-Raf

[js]

I'm not understanding your point:

Because a corporation - which is an AMORAL, profit driven entity - opposes
something you PERSONALLY don't like and pays politicians to support its
position, in order to sell more of its PRODUCT, this is a GOOD thing?

But when a similar (or hell, the SAME) corporation wants to say, allow
dumping of Dioxin in the drinking water supply, and pays politicians to
support its position - that's a BAD thing?

Interesting....


Here's what I think:

Lots of people hate smoking.

It's dirty.

It's smelly.

It aggravates your allergies.

It may, possibly in its secondhand form, in very, very high doses over a
prolonged period of decades, cause an increased RISK of cancer.

So when some people come around and say they want to "ban" smoking, all
these people jump on the bandwagon.

Problem is, No one MADE them go into bars where smoking takes place. No one
MADE them work there. It's just a PERSONAL crusade. So these people are
really just sticking their noses where they don't belong.

And the Insurance and Pharmaceutical corps are cleaning up.

Congrats.

Post by js
As for smoking: I'm not a smoker, but I'm not a fan of legislating behavior
either. And you ARE aware that Big Pharm and insurance cos. like Pfizer are
happily writing checks to push for anti-smoking regulations, right? All the
better to sell Nicorette patches and reduce the actuarial risk tables by
.01%. Not that it matters to the anti smoking zealots, who have adopter the
Machiavellian "enemy of my enemy" philosophy.

Are you saying that because Pfizer could make money selling a product
that helps people quit smoking it's therefore bad? To take it to the
exteme level of the rest of your post (below), if Nicorette works and
all smokers use it and quit then demand for the product will dry up,
it will no longer be profitable and Pfizer will have to make a living
elsewhere.

Post by js
Hell, next thing you know, people will be complaining that there are too
many drunks in bars, and want to ban alcohol. I can seriously envision a
world not to long form now where dopes will walk into fake "British Pub"
chains and drink alcohol free beer and mock whiskey while throwing foam
tipped nerf darts and settling for a Quiz Night where the questions are so
easy that ?"everyone's a winner"! Maybe they'll hire actors to stage a bar
brawl once or twice a night for "authenticity"

You may imagine this scenerio, but such extremes don't exist.

Post by js
You walk into a bar, you know what you're getting into.

Not really. I've played in many different types of establishments,
all of which call themselves "bars." Some we referred to as "Park-and-
Punches," bars where we expected at least one fight per night. We
worked hard to get out of those dumps and book nicer rooms. I've
noticed that the rooms we play that charge $4.50 to $5.50 for a pint
of beer don't have bar fights, clean their restrooms and pay the bands
more. That's where we book.

Post by js
Deal with it. Don't like it? Play weddings. ?It's the pussyification of

the world, I tell ya...

Not wanting to breath in shitty, smoke-filled air is hardly the
pussyfication of anything. Non-smokers have had to "deal with it" for
years. The tide has turned. Deal with it.

In NJ every bar owner I know loves the smoking ban. The smarter ones
set up outdoor smoking areas complete with heaters and some sort of
cover. Some have even set up separate outdoor bars with TVs, jukebox
and wait service. They made a small investment to make sure everybody
feels welcome in their establishment.

[John (NJ)]

Post by js
Because a corporation - which is an AMORAL, profit driven entity - opposes
something you PERSONALLY don't like and pays politicians to support its
position, in order to sell more of its PRODUCT, this is a GOOD thing?

I reject your notion that corporations, by definition, are bad/
amoral. The world isn't so cut and dry. There are good companies and
bad ones.

Post by js
But when a similar (or hell, the SAME) corporation wants to say, allow
dumping of Dioxin in the drinking water supply, and pays politicians to
support its position - that's a BAD thing?
Interesting....

Dumping dioxin and banning smoking are unrelated.

I am against lobbying politicians. It has outstayed its initial
purpose - to inform politicians of problems and needs in the
community.

Post by js
Lots of people hate smoking.
It's dirty.
It's smelly.
It aggravates your allergies.
It may, possibly in its secondhand form, in very, very high doses over a
prolonged period of decades, cause an increased RISK of cancer.

It has been statistically proven. Anecdotal evidence from my own
family supports those statistics. Several non-smoking family members
have died of lung cancer after living for years with their smoking
spouces.

Post by js
So when some people come around and say they want to "ban" smoking, all
these people jump on the bandwagon.

It's a good bandwagon to be on. There are no good arguments against a
smoking ban. The one potential argument - that it would kill business
- has been proven incorrect.

Post by js
Problem is, No one MADE them go into bars where smoking takes place.

No one MADE people start smoking either.

Post by js
No one MADE them work there.

As I said previously, once upon a time there were no smoke-free
workplaces.
(Although when I was in the Army in the 80s there was no smoking in
any military building, except unfortunately the barracks. I lived in a
small three-man room with two smokers for a while. It sucked.)

Post by js
It's just a PERSONAL crusade. So these people are
really just sticking their noses where they don't belong.

Assuming that 20% of the US population still smokes (I think I heard
it was lower, but I can't confirm). That means 80% of the population
benefits from a smoking ban. I also know many smokers who think the
ban is a good idea - the same people who stand outside their own homes
when they smoke.

Post by js
And the Insurance and Pharmaceutical corps are cleaning up.
Congrats.

How do insurance companies clean up here? They charge higher premiums
for smokers. They could save money in the long run with the reduction
of smoking-related illnesses. What's wrong with that?

I highly doubt that pharm companies are raking in money from Nicorette
or similar products. And so what if they are? If the product works
and people quit smoking their health can improve. These products
aren't obscenely priced like new cancer fighting drugs and such.

Eating healthy can improve your health, too. Do you also hate the
fruit and vegetable industry?

[Brian Running]

Post by js
Because a corporation - which is an AMORAL, profit driven entity - opposes
something you PERSONALLY don't like and pays politicians to support its
position, in order to sell more of its PRODUCT, this is a GOOD thing?

I reject your notion that corporations, by definition, are bad/amoral.

He didn't say "bad/amoral," he said "amoral." Amoral doesn't mean bad,
it means neither moral nor immoral. It means it does not act on moral
bases, which is true of corporations. They act on profit motive, not
morals.

Post by js
And the Insurance and Pharmaceutical corps are cleaning up. Congrats.

How do insurance companies clean up here? They charge higher premiums
for smokers. They could save money in the long run with the reduction
of smoking-related illnesses. What's wrong with that?

They would have lower claims experience, that's true, but that's not
what motivates insurance companies. Profit motivates them, and they
make greater profits with higher premiums. Higher claims experience is
what justifies their higher premiums. They're not losing money now,
John, their premiums cover all their claims experience, overhead and
profit very easily. They're making all kinds of money. They have no
economic motive to encourage people to stop smoking. Here's Uncle
Brian's Hot Tip for honest-to-goodness real-live health care reform:
Simply pass a law that excludes all health-insurance coverage for
conditions that are preventable or can be planned in advance. For
instance, no coverage for smokers, no coverage for pregnancy and childbirth.

I highly doubt that pharm companies are raking in money from Nicorette or similar products.

John, please. You don't think the maker of Nicorette makes a profit on
it. It advertises it constantly because it's losing money on it. You
know you don't believe that.

[John (NJ)]

Post by Brian Running

Post by js
And the Insurance and Pharmaceutical corps are cleaning up. Congrats.

How do insurance companies clean up here? �They charge higher premiums
for smokers. �They could save money in the long run with the reduction
of smoking-related illnesses. �What's wrong with that?

They would have lower claims experience, that's true, but that's not
what motivates insurance companies. �Profit motivates them, and they
make greater profits with higher premiums. �Higher claims experience is
what justifies their higher premiums. �They're not losing money now,
John, their premiums cover all their claims experience, overhead and
profit very easily. �They're making all kinds of money. They have no
economic motive to encourage people to stop smoking. �

Exactly, but JS is making it sound like the smoking ban is a
conspiracy to make money for the big pharm companies and if we agree
with the ban, or even quit smoking, we're simply jumping on the
bandwagon. Doesn't make sense to me.

Post by Brian Running
Here's Uncle
Simply pass a law that excludes all health-insurance coverage for
conditions that are preventable or can be planned in advance. �For
instance, no coverage for smokers, no coverage for pregnancy and childbirth.

I highly doubt that pharm companies are raking in money from Nicorette or similar products.

John, please. �You don't think the maker of Nicorette makes a profit on
it. �It advertises it constantly because it's losing money on it. �You
know you don't believe that.

A profit? Of course or they would cease production. Is it a major
cash cow? No. If indeed it's manufactured by a major pham company I
would imagine it's less than 1% of their business. They probably make
more money producing aspirin.

[Brian Running]

Post by John (NJ)
A profit? Of course or they would cease production. Is it a major
cash cow? No. If indeed it's manufactured by a major pham company I
would imagine it's less than 1% of their business. They probably make
more money producing aspirin.

It's manufactured by GlaxoSmithKline. They don't get more major than
that. Quick Googling revealed that over-the-counter nicotine gum has
$300 million dollar per year in sales. (
http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/TOP%20STORY/2104087/ ) A
number of other companies are trying very hard to break into that
market. ( Id. ) They wouldn't be attracted if there weren't a gold
mine there. Go ahead and Google "GlaxoSmithKline Nicorette Profit" and
see for yourself. They have to walk a mighty fine line, because they
have duties of disclosure and a desire to advertise their profitability
for the financial markets, but they don't want to appear to be reaping
obscene profits on a product that they try to market with an
almost-altruistic beneficence.

Think about it -- a product that people buy out of concern for their
health or guilt, that's necessitated by a physical and psychological
addiction to a substance that's heavily marketed, and sold by a gigantic
multi-national corporation that has little competition in the field. (I
saw one reference to Nicorette having 97% of the market, in the late
'90s) What on earth would prevent GlaxoSmithKline from jacking up their
profit margin to the max? As an amoral corporation (a neutral term),
they have a duty to their shareholders to do so.

[Derek Tearne]

Post by John (NJ)
A profit? Of course or they would cease production. Is it a major
cash cow? No. If indeed it's manufactured by a major pham company I
would imagine it's less than 1% of their business. They probably make
more money producing aspirin.

If you are too late to the party to cash in the profits of a highly
addictive drug (tobacco) what better than a product that many smokers
will eventually try, probably several times, during their eventual
attempts to stop smoking. I'm not a smoker, but it is my observation of
smokers that almost all smoker who have smoked for long enough to become
addicts (which isn't that long) will have tried to stop smoking on a
number of occasions.

What's even more interesting is that, as nicorette contains nicotine,
and the easiest way of getting nicotine is buy purchasing from tobacco
growers, the tobacco companies are also profiting even as people attempt
to stop using their products.

And, of course, as the nicotine patches contain the substance primarily
responsible for tobacco addiction, it can apparently take quite a long
time to wean oneself off the patches...

If the nicotine patches were an equivalent drain on the finances to
smoking this wouldn't be so much of a problem - but they appear to be
more expensive - so replacing smoking with nicotine patch addiction is a
gain for ones health and the air, but a financial killer.

--- Derek

[Jim Carr]

Post by Brian Running
They would have lower claims experience, that's true, but that's not
what motivates insurance companies. Profit motivates them, and they
make greater profits with higher premiums.

Right. Even if they make just 1% off of premiums, the higher the
premiums, the more money they make in actual dollars. Medical billing is
incredibly convoluted, but who cares? The practitioners raise their
rates to cover the overhead, and the insurance companies raise their
rates to cover increased cost of care. The more money that passes
through an insurance company, the more money they make. I haven't
exactly looked under the hood, but it seems to me that a slight increase
each year in administrative costs works to their advantage, which is the
opposite of most industries.

[J Stevens]

Post by js
So tomorrow (today?) I have a 4 gig 2 hours away that STARTS at noon. That
means I need to leave here by atleast 9:30AM to get there on time. Now, I
haven't seen 9:30 AM in years...My post time alone should tell you that
The money? eh... If it were any other time, I'd have said forget it.
However, this has been the most brutal summer I can remember, at least since
I left Buffalo 15 years ago.
Outside of my steady church gig, my monthly fusion gig and a few other gigs
that have dribbled in, there is NOTHING happening.
The even sadder thing is that when I talk to other full timers, I am in even
BETTER shape than they are. Even so, I take pretty much whatever comes in
these days, no matter how far away. Reminds me of my apprentice days when
would drive 3 hours there and back to net 20 bucks.
I'm not holding out much hope for the fall either, let alone New Year's. I
may actually go home and get piss drunk this year rather than gig.
You?

I've been turning down gigs because I've been too busy this summer.
We had the best summer weather out this way in years, and I missed it
because I was flying all over the place playing festivals.
The one weekend I had off all summer, I was planning a get away with the
wife and it turned out my Grandmother passed away and we had to fly to the
other side of the country for the funeral.
Good timing on Grandma's part.

I just got back from another trip and made enough money that I decided to
take the wife to Vegas this weekend to make up for not going away on our
anniversary due to me being out of town.

Of course festival season is over now and things thin out, but I've still
got dates on the calendar for the next 3 months.

Jay S