Ampeg V4-B not loud enough. Help?

[c***@gmail.com]

I just retubed my V4-B and had the connectors cleaned, etc. The
problem is I have to crank it almost all the way to hear it. When i
first had it 10 years ago, it was retubed, and it really had a punch
and low end, and i would turn it to say 2 o'clock, with the high and
low set to 1 o clock and middle set to 11, and the amp was a beast.

my question is this, i know its a 100 watt amp, but the newer ampet
410tx cab i have is set for 8ohm and 500-1000watt rms. is the wattage
discrepancy the problem? should i get a lower rated cabinet?


HELP!

[CS]

Post by c***@gmail.com
I just retubed my V4-B and had the connectors cleaned, etc. The
problem is I have to crank it almost all the way to hear it. When i
first had it 10 years ago, it was retubed, and it really had a punch
and low end, and i would turn it to say 2 o'clock, with the high and
low set to 1 o clock and middle set to 11, and the amp was a beast.
my question is this, i know its a 100 watt amp, but the newer ampet
410tx cab i have is set for 8ohm and 500-1000watt rms. is the wattage
discrepancy the problem? should i get a lower rated cabinet?
HELP!

you say the "newer" Ampeg cab, what was it driving before?
A 100w amp driving a 4x10 rated a 500w seems a bit underpowered....
I assume (perhaps incorrectly..) your 4x10 is similar to mine ( Ampeg
410he, I also have a 410tx but that's a Peavey cab..) which is 500w RMS
and 1000w peak at 8ohms..

V4-B's are all tube? If so I assume they did the bias correctly, all
the tubes are good and well seated....

[Jim Carr]

Post by CS
you say the "newer" Ampeg cab, what was it driving before?
A 100w amp driving a 4x10 rated a 500w seems a bit underpowered....
I assume (perhaps incorrectly..) your 4x10 is similar to mine ( Ampeg
410he, I also have a 410tx but that's a Peavey cab..) which is 500w RMS
and 1000w peak at 8ohms..

I disagree about it being underpowered. The wattage rating is the
theoretical maximum the cabinet can handle. If you have an 800W cabinet
receiving 80W from a 100W head and receiving 80W from a 1200W head, it
will be equally loud.

[CS]

Post by Jim Carr

Post by CS
you say the "newer" Ampeg cab, what was it driving before?
A 100w amp driving a 4x10 rated a 500w seems a bit underpowered....
I assume (perhaps incorrectly..) your 4x10 is similar to mine ( Ampeg
410he, I also have a 410tx but that's a Peavey cab..) which is 500w
RMS and 1000w peak at 8ohms..

I disagree about it being underpowered. The wattage rating is the
theoretical maximum the cabinet can handle. If you have an 800W cabinet
receiving 80W from a 100W head and receiving 80W from a 1200W head, it
will be equally loud.

Just me thinking though... Yes it will be equally loud as you describe,
but I strongly suspect that a 500w cab will sound better when driven
closer to its rated power than at only 1/5 of rated power.

[Jim Carr]

Post by CS
Just me thinking though... Yes it will be equally loud as you describe,
but I strongly suspect that a 500w cab will sound better when driven
closer to its rated power than at only 1/5 of rated power.

I don't see why that would be. The idea is that the rating indicates
where problems occur. You want pretty consistent response up to that
point. I'd venture to say when you approach the rated power, the speaker
will start to break up. Now, you *might* like that sound. I don't. But
up to that point the sound from the drivers should be essentially the same.

Think about this. In a typical cabinet (let's take Hartke for an
example) the number of drivers determines the overall power input limit.
They make 2x10, 4x10 and 8x10 cabinets. All use the same drivers, which
are rated at 100W each.

If you drove the 2x10 at 100W, each driver would be getting 50W. If your
theory is correct, you'd need to drive the 8x10 at 400W to get the same
"sound" from the drivers at 50W. That's awfully freaking loud. It would
make the 8x10 useless under typical conditions.

[CS]

Post by Jim Carr

Post by CS
Just me thinking though... Yes it will be equally loud as you
describe, but I strongly suspect that a 500w cab will sound better
when driven closer to its rated power than at only 1/5 of rated power.

I don't see why that would be. The idea is that the rating indicates
where problems occur. You want pretty consistent response up to that
point. I'd venture to say when you approach the rated power, the speaker
will start to break up. Now, you *might* like that sound. I don't. But
up to that point the sound from the drivers should be essentially the same.
Think about this. In a typical cabinet (let's take Hartke for an
example) the number of drivers determines the overall power input limit.
They make 2x10, 4x10 and 8x10 cabinets. All use the same drivers, which
are rated at 100W each.
If you drove the 2x10 at 100W, each driver would be getting 50W. If your
theory is correct, you'd need to drive the 8x10 at 400W to get the same
"sound" from the drivers at 50W. That's awfully freaking loud. It would
make the 8x10 useless under typical conditions..

OK. I'm following, so in my case 500w is the low end where if you apply
a constant signal you get an undesirable sound. 1000w is the high end
(or peak) which is the most power a cab will handle for short instances,
with out damage. I think I was on something like crack there for a
minute or more...... ;)

[Jim Carr]

Post by CS
OK. I'm following, so in my case 500w is the low end where if you apply
a constant signal you get an undesirable sound. 1000w is the high end
(or peak) which is the most power a cab will handle for short instances,
with out damage. I think I was on something like crack there for a
minute or more...... ;)

http://www.kithaa.com/bruce/b_tvcrack.wav

[Pt]

Post by c***@gmail.com
I just retubed my V4-B and had the connectors cleaned, etc. The
problem is I have to crank it almost all the way to hear it. When i
first had it 10 years ago, it was retubed, and it really had a punch
and low end, and i would turn it to say 2 o'clock, with the high and
low set to 1 o clock and middle set to 11, and the amp was a beast.
my question is this, i know its a 100 watt amp, but the newer ampet
410tx cab i have is set for 8ohm and 500-1000watt rms. is the wattage
discrepancy the problem? should i get a lower rated cabinet?
HELP!

Is that amp rated at 4 ohms?
If it is add another 8 ohm cabinet.

Pt

[tom]

Post by Pt

Post by c***@gmail.com
I just retubed my V4-B and had the connectors cleaned, etc. The
problem is I have to crank it almost all the way to hear it. When i
first had it 10 years ago, it was retubed, and it really had a punch
and low end, and i would turn it to say 2 o'clock, with the high and
low set to 1 o clock and middle set to 11, and the amp was a beast.
my question is this, i know its a 100 watt amp, but the newer ampet
410tx cab i have is set for 8ohm and 500-1000watt rms. is the wattage
discrepancy the problem? should i get a lower rated cabinet?
HELP!

Is that amp rated at 4 ohms?
If it is add another 8 ohm cabinet.
Pt

I know that at least the older V-4's had switchable ohms....I believe 4/8/16
ohm options. If yours has this option have you tried other settings?

[Lane Baldwin]

Post by tom

Post by Pt

Post by c***@gmail.com
I just retubed my V4-B and had the connectors cleaned, etc. The
problem is I have to crank it almost all the way to hear it. When i
first had it 10 years ago, it was retubed, and it really had a punch
and low end, and i would turn it to say 2 o'clock, with the high and
low set to 1 o clock and middle set to 11, and the amp was a beast.
my question is this, i know its a 100 watt amp, but the newer ampet
410tx cab i have is set for 8ohm and 500-1000watt rms. is the wattage
discrepancy the problem? should i get a lower rated cabinet?
HELP!

Is that amp rated at 4 ohms?
If it is add another 8 ohm cabinet.
Pt

I know that at least the older V-4's had switchable ohms....I believe 4/8/16
ohm options. If yours has this option have you tried other settings?

IIRC, it is not a good idea to run an all-tube amp at anything other than
cab rating. In other words, if it's an 8 Ohm cab, set the switch to 8 Ohms.
Doing otherwise could lead to a very costly repair when you burn up the
transformer. Also, as far as I know, varying the setting will not affect
overall volume, as regardless of impedance the amp still produces the same
amount of power.

CAVEATS:

1. Solid State power sections are different.

2. I could be wrong as it's been a LONG time since I've used an all-tube
amp.

[Todd H.]

Post by Lane Baldwin

Post by tom

Post by Pt

Post by c***@gmail.com
I just retubed my V4-B and had the connectors cleaned, etc. The
problem is I have to crank it almost all the way to hear it. When i
first had it 10 years ago, it was retubed, and it really had a punch
and low end, and i would turn it to say 2 o'clock, with the high and
low set to 1 o clock and middle set to 11, and the amp was a beast.
my question is this, i know its a 100 watt amp, but the newer ampet
410tx cab i have is set for 8ohm and 500-1000watt rms. is the wattage
discrepancy the problem? should i get a lower rated cabinet?
HELP!

Is that amp rated at 4 ohms?
If it is add another 8 ohm cabinet.
Pt

I know that at least the older V-4's had switchable ohms....I believe 4/8/16
ohm options. If yours has this option have you tried other settings?

IIRC, it is not a good idea to run an all-tube amp at anything other than
cab rating. In other words, if it's an 8 Ohm cab, set the switch to 8 Ohms.
Doing otherwise could lead to a very costly repair when you burn up the
transformer. Also, as far as I know, varying the setting will not affect
overall volume, as regardless of impedance the amp still produces the same
amount of power.
1. Solid State power sections are different.
2. I could be wrong as it's been a LONG time since I've used an all-tube
amp.

Lane is accurate on all counts here.

[Mike Rieves]

Post by c***@gmail.com
I just retubed my V4-B and had the connectors cleaned, etc. The
problem is I have to crank it almost all the way to hear it. When i
first had it 10 years ago, it was retubed, and it really had a punch
and low end, and i would turn it to say 2 o'clock, with the high and
low set to 1 o clock and middle set to 11, and the amp was a beast.
my question is this, i know its a 100 watt amp, but the newer ampet
410tx cab i have is set for 8ohm and 500-1000watt rms. is the wattage
discrepancy the problem? should i get a lower rated cabinet?
HELP!

Was it louder with the old tubes? If so, either there's something wrong
with the new tubes or possibly you've installed either a wrong tube or one
that is mis-marked. Perhaps one of the preamp tubes is lower gain than it
should be, resulting in your getting less than rated power from the amp. I
suggest that you go back and check to insure that the right tubes are in the
right sockets. You might also try swapping the old tubes back in one at a
time. If one of them causes the output to go back up where it should be,
you'll know there's something wrong with that new tube.

[VMI]

Post by Mike Rieves

Post by c***@gmail.com
I just retubed my V4-B and had the connectors cleaned, etc. The
problem is I have to crank it almost all the way to hear it. When i
first had it 10 years ago, it was retubed, and it really had a punch
and low end, and i would turn it to say 2 o'clock, with the high and
low set to 1 o clock and middle set to 11, and the amp was a beast.
my question is this, i know its a 100 watt amp, but the newer ampet
410tx cab i have is set for 8ohm and 500-1000watt rms. is the wattage
discrepancy the problem? should i get a lower rated cabinet?
HELP!

Was it louder with the old tubes? If so, either there's something wrong
with the new tubes or possibly you've installed either a wrong tube or one
that is mis-marked. Perhaps one of the preamp tubes is lower gain than it
should be, resulting in your getting less than rated power from the amp. I
suggest that you go back and check to insure that the right tubes are in the
right sockets. You might also try swapping the old tubes back in one at a
time. If one of them causes the output to go back up where it should be,
you'll know there's something wrong with that new tube.

As far as I can see on the schematic;
The tubes are 6L6's
I also see that each tube has a fuse from the cathode to ground (F2, 3,
4, 5).
Maybe some are blown and the corresponding tube is no longer drawing
current and hence no longer amplifing. The volume is a lot less then (of
course...)
Glowing tubes are no guarantee that the fuses are OK.
Check it first and post the result.
Cheers,
Zilog

[Rudolf Ziegaus]

Post by c***@gmail.com
I just retubed my V4-B and had the connectors cleaned, etc. The
problem is I have to crank it almost all the way to hear it. When i
first had it 10 years ago, it was retubed, and it really had a punch
and low end, and i would turn it to say 2 o'clock, with the high and
low set to 1 o clock and middle set to 11, and the amp was a beast.
my question is this, i know its a 100 watt amp, but the newer ampet
410tx cab i have is set for 8ohm and 500-1000watt rms. is the wattage
discrepancy the problem? should i get a lower rated cabinet?
HELP!

Hello,

at how many Ohms is your amp rated? And how many Ohms did your previous
cabinet have?
If your amp has 4 ohms and your previous cabinet was rated also at 4 ohms
that would explain a lot. If you connect an 8 ohm cabinet to a 4 ohm amp it
has a lot less power than connected to a 4 ohm cabinet.

If this is the case there are two possible solutions

a) use a 4 ohm cabinet again or
b) follow Pt's advice and use a second 8 ohm cabinet in parallel

HTH,

Rudi

[Lane Baldwin]

Post by Rudolf Ziegaus
at how many Ohms is your amp rated? And how many Ohms did your previous
cabinet have?
If your amp has 4 ohms and your previous cabinet was rated also at 4 ohms
that would explain a lot. If you connect an 8 ohm cabinet to a 4 ohm amp it
has a lot less power than connected to a 4 ohm cabinet.

This is true of solid state power sections, but not tubes. A tube amp
delivers rated power at all allowable impedance settings. Tube power is a
very different animal than solid state power, in many ways.

[Lane Baldwin]

Post by c***@gmail.com
I just retubed my V4-B and had the connectors cleaned, etc. The
problem is I have to crank it almost all the way to hear it. When i
first had it 10 years ago, it was retubed, and it really had a punch
and low end, and i would turn it to say 2 o'clock, with the high and
low set to 1 o clock and middle set to 11, and the amp was a beast.
my question is this, i know its a 100 watt amp, but the newer ampet
410tx cab i have is set for 8ohm and 500-1000watt rms. is the wattage
discrepancy the problem? should i get a lower rated cabinet?
HELP!

I don't see a 410tx cab on Ampeg's site. Here's what I found, along with
sensitivity ratings for each ---

B-410HE -- 95dB

B-410 HLF -- 99dB

SVT-410HLF -- 98dB

SVT-410HE -- 98dB

PR-410HLF -- 96dB

Compare them to the following:

Eden --

410XST -- 104dB

410XLT -- 106dB

Ashdown ABM410T -- 103dB

SWR Goliath III -- 105dB

G-K 410RBH -- 102dB

Now, consider that an increase of 10dB = double the volume, you can see that
there are several cabinets available that are significantly louder than the
Ampeg offerings. And this is just 410 cabs. So, it may be of value to look
at the specs of your previous cab to see if perhaps sensitivity is part of
the problem. Also, consider that your previous cab may have had better
bottom end, which means you don't have to use up as many Watts to product
the low end.

Another thing to look at is cables, to make sure all is well. And if your
bass uses a battery, check that as well. Check all connection points on head
and cab, maybe clean them up, as dirt can really screw things up.

If you know someone with another head like yours, try your cab with that and
see if it's any louder. If so, it's possible your tech missed something.

Hope this helps!