Problem with Hartke 210xl - buzzing speakers

Discussion:

(too old to reply)

Kevin

2006-08-22 14:40:36 UTC

I recently purchased the following rig:

Hartke 3500 amp head (350w @ 4 ohms)
Hartke 210xl cab (200w @ 8 ohms)
Hartke 115xl cab (200w @ 8 ohms)

I assumed this was a pretty typical configuration after doing a bunch
of research. The sound is amazing, but I've been through 2 210xl cabs
so far and I think I may need to replace the 2nd one as well. After one
practice the cab develops a buzzing in both speakers. I don't think I
am pushing this cab that much. My current amp head settings are:

Tube Pre: 7
Solid State Pre: 2
Post Gain: 6
EQ: Pretty much flat
Contours: flat

Does this sound like I am pushing it? I hate to keep replacing this
cab, and I'm not sure my rep will appreciate it either. Does this sound
like I am blowing the speakers? Any suggestions?

Many thanks,
Kevin

John Bigboote

2006-08-22 15:05:09 UTC

Permalink

Post by Kevin
Does this sound like I am pushing it? I hate to keep replacing this
cab, and I'm not sure my rep will appreciate it either. Does this sound
like I am blowing the speakers? Any suggestions?

Why don't you call Larry Hartke and ask him?

201-680-8153, according to the ad.

-jb

--
John Bigboote
Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems
"A Growing Excited Company"

Kevin D.

2006-08-22 17:13:26 UTC

Permalink

Post by John Bigboote

Why don't you call Larry Hartke and ask him?
201-680-8153, according to the ad.
-jb

haha, i haven't tried his number yet but did see the ad in the last bass
player magazine... is that for real?

Jim Carr

2006-08-22 18:31:45 UTC

Permalink

Are you 100% sure it's not the grill buzzing? Could you be hearing
distortion from your amp and mistaking it for buzzing? If you play at a low
volume is the buzzing still there?

Kevin

2006-08-22 19:01:42 UTC

Permalink

Post by Jim Carr

Are you 100% sure it's not the grill buzzing? Could you be hearing
distortion from your amp and mistaking it for buzzing? If you play at a low
volume is the buzzing still there?

If I play at low volumes it is now longer present, or it's so low I
cannot hear it. I first thought it might be grill noise, but it's
strange that both cabs had the same reaction. When I first plugged them
in they were fine, but by the end of my first jam with them, they were
both buzzing. I may take one apart and see if anything has come loose
on both of them.

Thanks for the input.
Kevin

Kevin

2006-08-22 20:42:27 UTC

Permalink

Post by Kevin

Post by Jim Carr

Are you 100% sure it's not the grill buzzing? Could you be hearing
distortion from your amp and mistaking it for buzzing? If you play at a low
volume is the buzzing still there?

Well, I took the grill off, and the noise is definitely coming from the
speakers themselves. I don't think it's amp distortion. I'm not pushing
the cab or the amp at all I don't believe. I guess I'll just return it
again and see what happens.

Thanks,
Kevin

Brian Running

2006-08-22 21:05:10 UTC

Permalink

Post by Kevin
Well, I took the grill off, and the noise is definitely coming from the
speakers themselves. I don't think it's amp distortion. I'm not pushing
the cab or the amp at all I don't believe. I guess I'll just return it
again and see what happens.

If it's a kind of raspy noise, like something is physically rubbing or
scratching when the cone moves, then it's very likely you are blowing
the speakers. When you overheat a voice coil, it will begin to melt,
and when it does, it distorts. The gaps between coils and magnets are
small, so it doesn't take much before it starts making noise. Sometimes
it will seize the cone right up. Sometimes the overheating is sever
enough to melt the voice coil wire, and then you've got real problems.

Try this -- while the amp is off, push gently in on the cone, near the
dust cap. If, as you push it in and let it return to starting position,
you hear a raspy, scraping noise, then you'll know for sure that you've
overheated and distorted the voice coil.

It's suspicious that you've done it to two cabs, so there might be a
problem with the amp. Sometimes, an amp will produce a small amount of
DC in its output. You can tell if your amp is doing it by watching the
cones when you turn the amp on. If the cones move in or out when the
power comes on, and stay slightly in or out, then you've got DC offset.
That constant DC current will eventually overheat and melt your voice
coils.

When you take the cab back, take your amp, too, and ask the tech to
check it for DC offset.

Kevin

2006-08-22 21:43:52 UTC

Permalink

Post by Brian Running

If it's a kind of raspy noise, like something is physically rubbing or
scratching when the cone moves, then it's very likely you are blowing
the speakers. When you overheat a voice coil, it will begin to melt,
and when it does, it distorts. The gaps between coils and magnets are
small, so it doesn't take much before it starts making noise. Sometimes
it will seize the cone right up. Sometimes the overheating is sever
enough to melt the voice coil wire, and then you've got real problems.
Try this -- while the amp is off, push gently in on the cone, near the
dust cap. If, as you push it in and let it return to starting position,
you hear a raspy, scraping noise, then you'll know for sure that you've
overheated and distorted the voice coil.
It's suspicious that you've done it to two cabs, so there might be a
problem with the amp. Sometimes, an amp will produce a small amount of
DC in its output. You can tell if your amp is doing it by watching the
cones when you turn the amp on. If the cones move in or out when the
power comes on, and stay slightly in or out, then you've got DC offset.
That constant DC current will eventually overheat and melt your voice
coils.
When you take the cab back, take your amp, too, and ask the tech to
check it for DC offset.

Brian,

Thanks for the tips.

I pushed on the cones, and did not hear or feel any scratching. There
definately could be something wrong with the amp though. I did buy it
used, and the whole plug housing was cracked and had to be replaced. I
super glued it together enough to be able to plug it in, and it all
seemed ok. I ordered a replacement housing but have not installed it
yet. I may just take the unit in to a tech to test.

Thanks again,
Kevin

Todd H.

2006-08-22 22:25:15 UTC

Permalink

Post by Kevin
I pushed on the cones, and did not hear or feel any scratching. There
definately could be something wrong with the amp though. I did buy it
used, and the whole plug housing was cracked and had to be replaced. I
super glued it together enough to be able to plug it in, and it all
seemed ok. I ordered a replacement housing but have not installed it
yet. I may just take the unit in to a tech to test.

That could be it right there actually.

Try it with the replacement housing first.

--
/"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Todd H
\ / | http://www.toddh.net/
X Promoting good netiquette | http://triplethreatband.com/
/ \ http://www.toddh.net/netiquette/ | http://myspace.com/mytriplethreatband

Jim Carr

2006-08-23 06:06:39 UTC

Permalink

I'm not trying to insult your intelligence about being able to distinguish
different types of buzzes. :-)

If you're using the tube preamp section at 7, that might be introducing a
buzz-like sound. I'd try to remove that from the equation. Better still, use
another amp like perhaps your PA amp. You could even run a guitar to
eliminate your bass as a possible source. Sometimes this stuff can be a pain
to figure out.

Kevin

2006-08-23 13:34:07 UTC

Permalink

Post by Jim Carr

I'm not trying to insult your intelligence about being able to distinguish
different types of buzzes. :-)
If you're using the tube preamp section at 7, that might be introducing a
buzz-like sound. I'd try to remove that from the equation. Better still, use
another amp like perhaps your PA amp. You could even run a guitar to
eliminate your bass as a possible source. Sometimes this stuff can be a pain
to figure out.

Trust me Jim, you're not insulting my intelligence :)

I'll try anything to figure out the problem, so I appreciate the input.

My only concern is that when I first plugged the cab in and cranked it
up, there was no buzzing, it was only after a while of jamming that it
appeared. I'm honestly not sure when it was introduced during band
practice, as I didn't mess around with it much between tunes. I'm now
worried that whatever the problem is/was, I've damaged the speakers.

Thanks again,
Kevin

Jim Carr

2006-08-24 02:50:53 UTC

Permalink

Post by Kevin
My only concern is that when I first plugged the cab in and cranked it
up, there was no buzzing, it was only after a while of jamming that it
appeared. I'm honestly not sure when it was introduced during band
practice, as I didn't mess around with it much between tunes. I'm now
worried that whatever the problem is/was, I've damaged the speakers.

It's definitely a puzzler. Let us know what you find out.

Middle C

2006-08-26 12:24:15 UTC

Permalink

Post by Kevin

Post by Jim Carr

I'm not trying to insult your intelligence about being able to distinguish
different types of buzzes. :-)
If you're using the tube preamp section at 7, that might be introducing a
buzz-like sound. I'd try to remove that from the equation. Better still, use
another amp like perhaps your PA amp. You could even run a guitar to
eliminate your bass as a possible source. Sometimes this stuff can be a pain
to figure out.

Trust me Jim, you're not insulting my intelligence :)
I'll try anything to figure out the problem, so I appreciate the input.
My only concern is that when I first plugged the cab in and cranked it
up, there was no buzzing, it was only after a while of jamming that it
appeared. I'm honestly not sure when it was introduced during band
practice, as I didn't mess around with it much between tunes. I'm now
worried that whatever the problem is/was, I've damaged the speakers.
Thanks again,
Kevin

I'm not sure I'm reading your right, but are you saying that it is fine when
you first light it up everytime, or just the first time you used the
cabinet?

If it's something that is deloping over time each time you start up, and
being a used amp, you may want to try changing the tube in the preamp.

Kevin

2006-08-28 13:29:37 UTC

I'm not trying to insult your intelligence about being able to distinguish
different types of buzzes. :-)
If you're using the tube preamp section at 7, that might be introducing a
buzz-like sound. I'd try to remove that from the equation. Better still, use
another amp like perhaps your PA amp. You could even run a guitar to
eliminate your bass as a possible source. Sometimes this stuff can be a pain
to figure out.

Trust me Jim, you're not insulting my intelligence :)
I'll try anything to figure out the problem, so I appreciate the input.
My only concern is that when I first plugged the cab in and cranked it
up, there was no buzzing, it was only after a while of jamming that it
appeared. I'm honestly not sure when it was introduced during band
practice, as I didn't mess around with it much between tunes. I'm now
worried that whatever the problem is/was, I've damaged the speakers.
Thanks again,
Kevin

I'm not sure I'm reading your right, but are you saying that it is fine when
you first light it up everytime, or just the first time you used the
cabinet?
If it's something that is deloping over time each time you start up, and
being a used amp, you may want to try changing the tube in the preamp.

Interesting thought. I had first meant each time I plugged in a NEW
cab, since I've replaced it. BUT, you might be on to something with the
tube. I'll have to check that out.

I've been playing around with it a bit, and I think part of my problem
is I've been overdriving the input. The bass (Ibanez BTB) has passive
pickups, but an active EQ. I noticed even with the master turned down,
the compressor was on most of the time, so I backed off some bass EQ
and volume on the bass itself, and it seems to have helped a bit. I'm
going to keep messing with settings, and I may try to change the tube
as well.

Thanks again,
Kevin

Middle C

2006-08-26 12:12:55 UTC

Permalink

Those volume settings may be a little high for those speakers unless you are
using the "compressor" with it. I have the 3500 and usually run it with
tube pre wide open, the master around 4, no compression. I can't say I
have any experiance with the XL cabnets, but I did start out with a VX 410
and VX 115... both of which were just plain sh*t. (note the past tense)
It's a great little amp and I still use the 3500 as a practice rig, but I'm
relatively unimpressed with any of Hartke's cabinet specs for even their
best cabinets... especially when compared to Avatar.

... and Dave WILL answer the phone.

Post by Kevin
I assumed this was a pretty typical configuration after doing a bunch
of research. The sound is amazing, but I've been through 2 210xl cabs
so far and I think I may need to replace the 2nd one as well. After one
practice the cab develops a buzzing in both speakers. I don't think I
Tube Pre: 7
Solid State Pre: 2
Post Gain: 6
EQ: Pretty much flat
Contours: flat
Does this sound like I am pushing it? I hate to keep replacing this
cab, and I'm not sure my rep will appreciate it either. Does this sound
like I am blowing the speakers? Any suggestions?
Many thanks,
Kevin