Discussion:
cheap soundproofing?
(too old to reply)
~R
2006-02-28 10:37:15 UTC
Permalink
Hey group!

I have a room where all my music stuff is that I want to quiet
down a bit, without turning the volume down. I'm hearing mixed
views about acoustic foam. I thought it would help absorb sound,
but I also read that it just kills the ring/echo, but sound still
goes right through it to the next room. Does it help contain the
sound at all?

The room used to be a 2-car garage. It's attached to the house
with a thick brick wall in between. The walls and ceiling are
stuffed with fiberglass insulation. and there's carpet and pad on
the floor. There is a very thin door going from the jam room to
the rest of the house, so I know that can be improved, too.

So, I don't want to undergo a mojor reconstruction project. Just
want to line the walls with some egg-crate type foam.
http://www.foambymail.com/Eggcrate.html
but I thought I'd get some opinions before I shell out some
money. Any thoughts?

Thanks,

~Rob
Middle C
2006-02-28 11:54:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by ~R
Hey group!
I have a room where all my music stuff is that I want to quiet
down a bit, without turning the volume down. I'm hearing mixed
views about acoustic foam. I thought it would help absorb sound,
but I also read that it just kills the ring/echo, but sound still
goes right through it to the next room. Does it help contain the
sound at all?
The room used to be a 2-car garage. It's attached to the house
with a thick brick wall in between. The walls and ceiling are
stuffed with fiberglass insulation. and there's carpet and pad on
the floor. There is a very thin door going from the jam room to
the rest of the house, so I know that can be improved, too.
So, I don't want to undergo a mojor reconstruction project. Just
want to line the walls with some egg-crate type foam.
http://www.foambymail.com/Eggcrate.html
but I thought I'd get some opinions before I shell out some
money. Any thoughts?
Thanks,
~Rob
Considering what you have between the house now, I think I'd just start with
the door and see how much differance it makes. I good solid door with seals
will help a lot.
If that does not get you the full result, there is some kind of
fiber/wallboard that is good for this. I work in printing and one place I
worked for in particular used the stuff to reduce the noise from the
folders. If you've never heard one, they sound like machine guns when they
run. They had some carpenters install it so I don't know exactly what it is
called, but I was really supprised at how effective it was. You could
still hear them out side the room, but it made a huge differance. I would
have thought regular insulation would have been better. You should be
able to find it at lumber yards - probably not so much at Lowes or Home
Depot. I have no idea how much it runs, but it will certanly look better
than foam on your walls.
ChrisK.
2006-02-28 13:15:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Middle C
Post by ~R
Hey group!
I have a room where all my music stuff is that I want to quiet
down a bit, without turning the volume down. I'm hearing mixed
views about acoustic foam. I thought it would help absorb sound,
but I also read that it just kills the ring/echo, but sound still
goes right through it to the next room. Does it help contain the
sound at all?
The room used to be a 2-car garage. It's attached to the house
with a thick brick wall in between. The walls and ceiling are
stuffed with fiberglass insulation. and there's carpet and pad on
the floor. There is a very thin door going from the jam room to
the rest of the house, so I know that can be improved, too.
So, I don't want to undergo a mojor reconstruction project. Just
want to line the walls with some egg-crate type foam.
http://www.foambymail.com/Eggcrate.html
but I thought I'd get some opinions before I shell out some
money. Any thoughts?
Thanks,
~Rob
Considering what you have between the house now, I think I'd just start with
the door and see how much differance it makes. I good solid door with seals
will help a lot.
Really soundproofing a room is expensive and a really long subject,
Sonex plates and egg crate foam are Acoustic Absorbers not Acoustic
Isolators. My experience is that in a more acoustically balanced or at
least "deadened" room you are able to hear yourself much better and thus
playing on the lower side of the volume scale.

--
Chris
Sam Rouse
2006-03-01 05:11:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Middle C
Post by ~R
Hey group!
I have a room where all my music stuff is that I want to quiet
down a bit, without turning the volume down. I'm hearing mixed
views about acoustic foam. I thought it would help absorb sound,
but I also read that it just kills the ring/echo, but sound still
goes right through it to the next room. Does it help contain the
sound at all?
The room used to be a 2-car garage. It's attached to the house
with a thick brick wall in between. The walls and ceiling are
stuffed with fiberglass insulation. and there's carpet and pad on
the floor. There is a very thin door going from the jam room to
the rest of the house, so I know that can be improved, too.
So, I don't want to undergo a mojor reconstruction project. Just
want to line the walls with some egg-crate type foam.
http://www.foambymail.com/Eggcrate.html
but I thought I'd get some opinions before I shell out some
money. Any thoughts?
Thanks,
~Rob
Considering what you have between the house now, I think I'd just start with
the door and see how much differance it makes. I good solid door with seals
will help a lot.
If that does not get you the full result, there is some kind of
fiber/wallboard that is good for this. I work in printing and one place I
worked for in particular used the stuff to reduce the noise from the
folders. If you've never heard one, they sound like machine guns when they
run. They had some carpenters install it so I don't know exactly what it is
called, but I was really supprised at how effective it was. You could
still hear them out side the room, but it made a huge differance. I would
have thought regular insulation would have been better. You should be
able to find it at lumber yards - probably not so much at Lowes or Home
Depot. I have no idea how much it runs, but it will certanly look better
than foam on your walls.
I think what you're describing is called sound control board - a really spongy
particle board, 5/8" thick as I recall. You can cut it with a utility knife.
It's relatively inexpensive.

I had fairly good success soundproofing an apartment room some year ago, using
sound control board, foam carpet padding (also inexpensive), a bunch of salvaged
indoor/outdoor carpet, and some 1/4 x 1" lath. First tacked the carpet pad up
at the top, running some nails thru lath (the carpet pad tears too easily
otherwise, and it gives you a bit of air space). Then the sound board, another
run of lath, and hung the carpet from the lath. Using thicker lath to get more
air between the carpet & sound board is a good idea. The door just got a
door-sized piece of soundboard with a hole for the knob, and a layer of carpet
which extended past the jamb on top and sides (made sort of a gasket - the door
swung into the room, of course). This didn't keep all the sound confined, but
it knocked it down substantially.
Middle C
2006-03-01 11:55:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Rouse
Post by Middle C
Post by ~R
Hey group!
I have a room where all my music stuff is that I want to quiet
down a bit, without turning the volume down. I'm hearing mixed
views about acoustic foam. I thought it would help absorb sound,
but I also read that it just kills the ring/echo, but sound still
goes right through it to the next room. Does it help contain the
sound at all?
The room used to be a 2-car garage. It's attached to the house
with a thick brick wall in between. The walls and ceiling are
stuffed with fiberglass insulation. and there's carpet and pad on
the floor. There is a very thin door going from the jam room to
the rest of the house, so I know that can be improved, too.
So, I don't want to undergo a mojor reconstruction project. Just
want to line the walls with some egg-crate type foam.
http://www.foambymail.com/Eggcrate.html
but I thought I'd get some opinions before I shell out some
money. Any thoughts?
Thanks,
~Rob
Considering what you have between the house now, I think I'd just start with
the door and see how much differance it makes. I good solid door with seals
will help a lot.
If that does not get you the full result, there is some kind of
fiber/wallboard that is good for this. I work in printing and one place I
worked for in particular used the stuff to reduce the noise from the
folders. If you've never heard one, they sound like machine guns when they
run. They had some carpenters install it so I don't know exactly what it is
called, but I was really supprised at how effective it was. You could
still hear them out side the room, but it made a huge differance. I would
have thought regular insulation would have been better. You should be
able to find it at lumber yards - probably not so much at Lowes or Home
Depot. I have no idea how much it runs, but it will certanly look better
than foam on your walls.
I think what you're describing is called sound control board - a really spongy
particle board, 5/8" thick as I recall. You can cut it with a utility knife.
It's relatively inexpensive.
This sounds about right. As I remember it was much the same as the barrier
sheeting that is often used on the exterior walls of houses, less the tar
coating... or whatever the black stuff is on one side. I would imagine it
is relatavily cheap as compared to some of the ideas thrown out so far. It
will not sound proof the room, but it should get it to a managable level.

BTY - my solution to all this is a good pair of headphones and/or getting my
wife out of the house for a few ours. Of course the neighbors aren't real
crazy about the latter solution, but it's usually too hot or too cold hear
in GA for anyone to leave their windows open.
Post by Sam Rouse
I had fairly good success soundproofing an apartment room some year ago, using
sound control board, foam carpet padding (also inexpensive), a bunch of salvaged
indoor/outdoor carpet, and some 1/4 x 1" lath. First tacked the carpet pad up
at the top, running some nails thru lath (the carpet pad tears too easily
otherwise, and it gives you a bit of air space). Then the sound board, another
run of lath, and hung the carpet from the lath. Using thicker lath to get more
air between the carpet & sound board is a good idea. The door just got a
door-sized piece of soundboard with a hole for the knob, and a layer of carpet
which extended past the jamb on top and sides (made sort of a gasket - the door
swung into the room, of course). This didn't keep all the sound confined, but
it knocked it down substantially.
Larry Shaw
2006-02-28 12:48:21 UTC
Permalink
The Door is the weakest point so you should sort that out first.
Hang old carpets/heavy blankets on the walls - go for thickness and high
density materials... best option is build another internal wall and
sand-fill the gap. If the room gets too 'dead' then you can put in hard
reflective surfaces after you isolated the room accoustically.
Charlie S.
2006-02-28 15:31:25 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 12:48:21 +0000 (UTC), "Larry Shaw"
Post by Larry Shaw
The Door is the weakest point so you should sort that out first.
Hang old carpets/heavy blankets on the walls - go for thickness and high
density materials... best option is build another internal wall and
sand-fill the gap. If the room gets too 'dead' then you can put in hard
reflective surfaces after you isolated the room accoustically.
I believe you'd do better with the carpet/heavy blankets not directly
ON the walls but suspended an inch or two out from the wall(s), giving
them some room to move and absorb more of the sound, rather than
passing some sound straight through into the wall. You could do this
easily by attaching the carpet to a 1"x2" or 2"x2" board at top,
bottom, and corners of the wall. The carpet would then be fairly firm,
not allowing sound to go around it, but be absorbed by it and by the
"dead" space between the carpet and wall. Just make sure you're using
a heavy shag or berber, not a light shag, which would probably pass
half the sound (or more) straight on through.
Larry Shaw
2006-02-28 18:44:51 UTC
Permalink
Yer right Charlie... just hang the carpets like drapes... good old fashioned
horse hair mattresses are good too....
Post by Charlie S.
On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 12:48:21 +0000 (UTC), "Larry Shaw"
Post by Larry Shaw
The Door is the weakest point so you should sort that out first.
Hang old carpets/heavy blankets on the walls - go for thickness and high
density materials... best option is build another internal wall and
sand-fill the gap. If the room gets too 'dead' then you can put in hard
reflective surfaces after you isolated the room accoustically.
I believe you'd do better with the carpet/heavy blankets not directly
ON the walls but suspended an inch or two out from the wall(s), giving
them some room to move and absorb more of the sound, rather than
passing some sound straight through into the wall. You could do this
easily by attaching the carpet to a 1"x2" or 2"x2" board at top,
bottom, and corners of the wall. The carpet would then be fairly firm,
not allowing sound to go around it, but be absorbed by it and by the
"dead" space between the carpet and wall. Just make sure you're using
a heavy shag or berber, not a light shag, which would probably pass
half the sound (or more) straight on through.
crow
2006-02-28 13:27:45 UTC
Permalink
Foam of the type you're talking about absorbs a narrow band centered around
1K. Everything else (especially bass frequencies) will still get through.
Fiberglass in the wall is similarly sonically transparent unless it's packed
to a density of 3Lbs/cubic foot or more. Sheets of loaded vinyl are not
cheap but could offer more of a solution than foam.6Lb density Rigid
Fiberglass Board (RFB) is used in the construction of fiberglass ductwork.
It comes in 4' x 10' x 1"sheets (about $30) & is available through any HVAC
contractor. Several layers of this will absorb an appreciable amount of
sound.

jepp
--
if it sounds good...IT IS GOOD!
Post by ~R
Hey group!
I have a room where all my music stuff is that I want to quiet
down a bit, without turning the volume down. I'm hearing mixed
views about acoustic foam. I thought it would help absorb sound,
but I also read that it just kills the ring/echo, but sound still
goes right through it to the next room. Does it help contain the
sound at all?
The room used to be a 2-car garage. It's attached to the house
with a thick brick wall in between. The walls and ceiling are
stuffed with fiberglass insulation. and there's carpet and pad on
the floor. There is a very thin door going from the jam room to
the rest of the house, so I know that can be improved, too.
So, I don't want to undergo a mojor reconstruction project. Just
want to line the walls with some egg-crate type foam.
http://www.foambymail.com/Eggcrate.html
but I thought I'd get some opinions before I shell out some
money. Any thoughts?
Thanks,
~Rob
Cyberserf
2006-02-28 13:52:13 UTC
Permalink
~R wrote:
<snip>
Post by ~R
So, I don't want to undergo a mojor reconstruction project. Just
want to line the walls with some egg-crate type foam.
http://www.foambymail.com/Eggcrate.html
but I thought I'd get some opinions before I shell out some
money. Any thoughts?
~Rob,

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is the problem with Bass (i.e.
Low frequency).

Ever stand outside a discotheque or a house party...it isn't the highs
that make it through the bricks and mortar (their energy gets absorbed
relatively quickly)...it isn't the mid range that is throbing through
your chest (some may get out, but it's typically pretty tame through
one wall, even quieter through 2)...it's the bass...Boom, boom bomm
boumb boom...bloody stuff is almost completely directionless and
bounces for ever...notwithstanding the harmonic crap that it throws in
the air and the strain it puts on accurate monitoring of sound, it is
bloody hard to get rid of with nonspecific "carpet" tilling...so, Rob,
IMHO, if keeping the sound in is your ultimate plan, you might want to
start thinking about building a nice Bass Trap at the receiving end of
your sonic tunnel (placement is as much an art as a science...and there
are acoustic analysis software available that do all of the hard math,
but you need to integrate some careful planning if you are to do both,
soundproof, and sound shape your studio space. If you are mixing in the
studio then the Live-end-Dead-end model is popular so that your
tracking room can have some ambiance while your mixing room can be
relatively neutral. There are some early articles by Paul White for
Sound on Sound (do a Google to get the site) on the subject of acoustic
treament from both the "sound proofing" and the "sound shaping"
perspective.

Do some research before you commit to some expense...If you have the
space, you may want to actually build false walls and floors to further
isolate your studio. This is the way most pro studios are actually
built...as a room within a room with suitable materials in between to
avoid any acoustic coupling.

In any event, do a Google for "bass trap plans", that'll be your
biggest complaint from the neighbours, so killing it early may save you
having to completely kill the sound altogether....the truth is out
there.

Cheers, JWP
Rob Duncan
2006-03-01 19:12:40 UTC
Permalink
The most effective is a dense material an inch or so from the wall to create
dead air space. Finally someone brings up the below... And Ill mention as
the frequency lowers the greater the sound leak. The higher the frequency,
the easier to block. So, if this is a band situation place the bass cab
high, ear level, so you can use it at as low a volume as possible.

A room within a room is the best. Its why studios do it. I know theres a
specific distance from the wall thats most effective, but I cant recall, and
wouldnt have a clue on how to find it using the net. But pollution
control/abbatment companies that deal with soundproofing will know for sure
and would give the distance to you just to be nice, Im sure. We once hung
used heavy burber capet, in layers, from the ceiling, about an inch and a
half from the walls. That seemed to work REALLY well... Those carpet
places will give or sale old, removed carpet, for dirt cheap, or free, most
of the time.

We once used, old used, laminate wall board, that brown crap with black
stripes. It didnt work worth a shit. The carpet was way better.



Rob
Post by Cyberserf
<snip>
Post by ~R
So, I don't want to undergo a mojor reconstruction project. Just
want to line the walls with some egg-crate type foam.
http://www.foambymail.com/Eggcrate.html
but I thought I'd get some opinions before I shell out some
money. Any thoughts?
~Rob,
One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is the problem with Bass (i.e.
Low frequency).
Ever stand outside a discotheque or a house party...it isn't the highs
that make it through the bricks and mortar (their energy gets absorbed
relatively quickly)...it isn't the mid range that is throbing through
your chest (some may get out, but it's typically pretty tame through
one wall, even quieter through 2)...it's the bass...Boom, boom bomm
boumb boom...bloody stuff is almost completely directionless and
bounces for ever...notwithstanding the harmonic crap that it throws in
the air and the strain it puts on accurate monitoring of sound, it is
bloody hard to get rid of with nonspecific "carpet" tilling...so, Rob,
IMHO, if keeping the sound in is your ultimate plan, you might want to
start thinking about building a nice Bass Trap at the receiving end of
your sonic tunnel (placement is as much an art as a science...and there
are acoustic analysis software available that do all of the hard math,
but you need to integrate some careful planning if you are to do both,
soundproof, and sound shape your studio space. If you are mixing in the
studio then the Live-end-Dead-end model is popular so that your
tracking room can have some ambiance while your mixing room can be
relatively neutral. There are some early articles by Paul White for
Sound on Sound (do a Google to get the site) on the subject of acoustic
treament from both the "sound proofing" and the "sound shaping"
perspective.
Do some research before you commit to some expense...If you have the
space, you may want to actually build false walls and floors to further
isolate your studio. This is the way most pro studios are actually
built...as a room within a room with suitable materials in between to
avoid any acoustic coupling.
In any event, do a Google for "bass trap plans", that'll be your
biggest complaint from the neighbours, so killing it early may save you
having to completely kill the sound altogether....the truth is out
there.
Cheers, JWP
coreybenson
2006-02-28 14:30:43 UTC
Permalink
Rob: Great subject... probably the wrong place to ask it, but we're a
forgiving bunch! There was just a thread on this is rec.audio.pro.

Building a room inside your room would probably help immensely.
Filling the open area between the walls with sand MAY help... but more
often the suggestion would be to leave an open air gap.

Here's a company that has some great info, and some great products. We
used their dB-Block product when we built our recording studio:

http://www.controlnoise.com/

They are local to Minneapolis (where we're located) so it made sense
for us. Other companies offer similar products. For additional
information, check out this Auralex site. It's specifically geared
towards education about sound and its myriad issues:

http://www.acoustics101.com/

Corey
Larry Shaw
2006-02-28 18:52:18 UTC
Permalink
I'd still go for the sand - but obviously a severe case of "suck-it-and-see"
. It's worth reading how The Who built 'Ramport Studious' out of an old
church hall.
Post by coreybenson
Rob: Great subject... probably the wrong place to ask it, but we're a
forgiving bunch! There was just a thread on this is rec.audio.pro.
Building a room inside your room would probably help immensely.
Filling the open area between the walls with sand MAY help... but more
often the suggestion would be to leave an open air gap.
Here's a company that has some great info, and some great products. We
http://www.controlnoise.com/
They are local to Minneapolis (where we're located) so it made sense
for us. Other companies offer similar products. For additional
information, check out this Auralex site. It's specifically geared
http://www.acoustics101.com/
Corey
coreybenson
2006-02-28 19:18:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Shaw
I'd still go for the sand - but obviously a severe case of "suck-it-and-see"
Huh? Larry, I'm completely missing the reference...
Post by Larry Shaw
It's worth reading how The Who built 'Ramport Studious' out of an old
church hall.
It probably would be interesting reading. I'll look into it. I'm
assuming the rebuild was back in the 70's? Thankfully, there've been
major advances in the technology used to keep sound levels at bay. The
dB-Block material has proven itself to my ears... even with a hard
hitting drummer on the other side of the wall, we have excellent
separation between our control room and the drum booth. Considering
this was done in a 90 year old house's basement, I'd say the proof is
in the pudding. I can't even imagine HOW we'd have filled everything
with sand. Wow, what a pain that would have been! lol Not to mention
the AMOUNT we'd have needed. Egads...

Just my 2 cents, Larry... you may be right, it just seems a bit extreme
to me.

Corey
Patrick Keenan
2006-03-01 02:01:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by coreybenson
Post by Larry Shaw
I'd still go for the sand - but obviously a severe case of
"suck-it-and-see"
Huh? Larry, I'm completely missing the reference...
Post by Larry Shaw
It's worth reading how The Who built 'Ramport Studious' out of an old
church hall.
It probably would be interesting reading. I'll look into it. I'm
assuming the rebuild was back in the 70's? Thankfully, there've been
major advances in the technology used to keep sound levels at bay. The
dB-Block material has proven itself to my ears... even with a hard
hitting drummer on the other side of the wall, we have excellent
separation between our control room and the drum booth. Considering
this was done in a 90 year old house's basement, I'd say the proof is
in the pudding. I can't even imagine HOW we'd have filled everything
with sand. Wow, what a pain that would have been! lol Not to mention
the AMOUNT we'd have needed. Egads...
Employers of mine bought a house some years ago, with a large carriage house
out back (which also had, in the basement, a bricked-up tunnel to the
basement of a pool hall on the main road, leftover from booze can days).
Built a shop up top, and added a recording studio on the ground floor of the
carriage house, of a room-within-a-room design; multiple-layered walls with
fiberglass damping and tons of sand.

Eventually, the partnerships broke up and the house was sold. The new
owners didn't really have a need for the shop or recording studio, and so
they decided to rip it out. And as the house sold at the top of the
market, they didn't have a lot of money left and decided to do the work
themselves. They were a bit surprised when they took a sledgehammer to
the wall that held the sand..

-pk
Post by coreybenson
Just my 2 cents, Larry... you may be right, it just seems a bit extreme
to me.
Corey
Larry Shaw
2006-03-01 13:38:24 UTC
Permalink
Sorry Corey, I dropped the reply in after the wrong post! - I had (earlier
in thread) said 'build an internal structure and isolate it from the
original by filling the wall gap with sand' - Thats what was done at Ramport
and at a studio I was involved in once... These days there are high density
closed(& open) cell two-pack foams, but still quite accoustically
transparent in the audio range... carpet/lead/carpet makes a good sandwich.
Post by coreybenson
Post by Larry Shaw
I'd still go for the sand - but obviously a severe case of
"suck-it-and-see"
Post by coreybenson
Huh? Larry, I'm completely missing the reference...
Post by Larry Shaw
It's worth reading how The Who built 'Ramport Studious' out of an old
church hall.
It probably would be interesting reading. I'll look into it. I'm
assuming the rebuild was back in the 70's? Thankfully, there've been
major advances in the technology used to keep sound levels at bay. The
dB-Block material has proven itself to my ears... even with a hard
hitting drummer on the other side of the wall, we have excellent
separation between our control room and the drum booth. Considering
this was done in a 90 year old house's basement, I'd say the proof is
in the pudding. I can't even imagine HOW we'd have filled everything
with sand. Wow, what a pain that would have been! lol Not to mention
the AMOUNT we'd have needed. Egads...
Just my 2 cents, Larry... you may be right, it just seems a bit extreme
to me.
Corey
Grip
2006-02-28 15:51:37 UTC
Permalink
VERY Simple! Indoor/outdoor carpet, been there done that. But the CHEAPEST
way although not pretty, is cardboard EGG BOXES satped to the
wall..........Works GREAT
Post by ~R
Hey group!
I have a room where all my music stuff is that I want to quiet
down a bit, without turning the volume down. I'm hearing mixed
views about acoustic foam. I thought it would help absorb sound,
but I also read that it just kills the ring/echo, but sound still
goes right through it to the next room. Does it help contain the
sound at all?
The room used to be a 2-car garage. It's attached to the house
with a thick brick wall in between. The walls and ceiling are
stuffed with fiberglass insulation. and there's carpet and pad on
the floor. There is a very thin door going from the jam room to
the rest of the house, so I know that can be improved, too.
So, I don't want to undergo a mojor reconstruction project. Just
want to line the walls with some egg-crate type foam.
http://www.foambymail.com/Eggcrate.html
but I thought I'd get some opinions before I shell out some
money. Any thoughts?
Thanks,
~Rob
RickH
2006-02-28 16:27:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by ~R
Hey group!
I have a room where all my music stuff is that I want to quiet
down a bit, without turning the volume down. I'm hearing mixed
views about acoustic foam. I thought it would help absorb sound,
but I also read that it just kills the ring/echo, but sound still
goes right through it to the next room. Does it help contain the
sound at all?
The room used to be a 2-car garage. It's attached to the house
with a thick brick wall in between. The walls and ceiling are
stuffed with fiberglass insulation. and there's carpet and pad on
the floor. There is a very thin door going from the jam room to
the rest of the house, so I know that can be improved, too.
So, I don't want to undergo a mojor reconstruction project. Just
want to line the walls with some egg-crate type foam.
http://www.foambymail.com/Eggcrate.html
but I thought I'd get some opinions before I shell out some
money. Any thoughts?
Thanks,
~Rob
Open cell foam wont stop bass, it will just weaken high frequency
reflections. Also stay away from polyurethane, egg crates, sonex,
audex, etc as they will all turn the room and house into a FIRE hazard.
To control room reflections use rigid (6 or 7 lb/cu.Ft) fiberglass
with decorative fabric instead, works better and wont go up in flames
and you can cut to exactly fit. Manville makes 6 lb rigid fiberglass
in 1 or 2 inch thickness in 4x8 sheets, this stuff is great at
attenuating bass over a length of wall, because it is dense. Regular
house (roll) insulation is not dense enough to attenuate bass, so it is
useless for what you want, so is sonex useless at bass.

As for sound PROOFING, that takes either mass (bricks, cinderblock,
lead, thick rubber sheething, etc) or a double-offset-studded-isolation
wall. Along with sealing all leaks. Since you already have some mass,
I would first do the door like another poster mentioned, use tight
weatherstripping. Also the door itself (if hollow) can be filled with
sand, or the door itself replaced with a soundproof steel door, or
possibly a heavy steel exterior door.
Jón Fairbairn
2006-02-28 16:36:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by RickH
As for sound PROOFING, that takes either mass (bricks, cinderblock,
lead, thick rubber sheething, etc)
That reminds me of this: <URL:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg16722562.600.html >
which sounds just the ticket, if somewhat difficult/pricey
to get hold of.
--
Jón Fairbairn ***@cl.cam.ac.uk
http://www.chaos.org.uk/~jf/Stuff-I-dont-want.html (updated 2005-11-08)
Brian Running
2006-02-28 16:29:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by ~R
Hey group!
Hey!
Post by ~R
I have a room where all my music stuff is that I want to quiet
down a bit, without turning the volume down.
I'm not clear on what you want to accomplish -- do you want the interior
of the room to be quieter when you play? Or do you want to control
transmission of the sound into the house?

The foam you're talking about is for improving the acoustics of the
interior of the room, not to prevent sound from getting out of the room.
If you've got an echo chamber room right now, and the acoustics are
bad, then the foam wall treatments can do a good job -- but there are
cheaper alternatives, the easiest being to hang rugs from the walls.

If you're trying to keep the rest of the house quiet, the foam isn't
going to do diddly, and the most effective solutions aren't easy or
cheap. I think the best means within reach of mere mortals is to build
another room within the room, and hang double sheets of 5/8" drywall.
Put fiberglass between the walls, caulk every gap. And then, turn your
amps down 'way low. ;-)
John Shaughnessy
2006-02-28 19:36:29 UTC
Permalink
The owner of the studio where I teach lined the drum rooms with some foam
mattress padding (I forget the name) that he found at Target. It works
better than any of the expensive stuff IMO.
--
Lessons, music and more at www.jmsjazz.com

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid,
but most stupid people are conservatives."
- John Stuart Mill
Post by ~R
Hey group!
I have a room where all my music stuff is that I want to quiet
down a bit, without turning the volume down. I'm hearing mixed
views about acoustic foam. I thought it would help absorb sound,
but I also read that it just kills the ring/echo, but sound still
goes right through it to the next room. Does it help contain the
sound at all?
The room used to be a 2-car garage. It's attached to the house
with a thick brick wall in between. The walls and ceiling are
stuffed with fiberglass insulation. and there's carpet and pad on
the floor. There is a very thin door going from the jam room to
the rest of the house, so I know that can be improved, too.
So, I don't want to undergo a mojor reconstruction project. Just
want to line the walls with some egg-crate type foam.
http://www.foambymail.com/Eggcrate.html
but I thought I'd get some opinions before I shell out some
money. Any thoughts?
Thanks,
~Rob
DeeAa
2006-02-28 20:48:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by ~R
The room used to be a 2-car garage. It's attached to the house
with a thick brick wall in between. The walls and ceiling are
stuffed with fiberglass insulation. and there's carpet and pad on
the floor. There is a very thin door going from the jam room to
the rest of the house, so I know that can be improved, too.
Bear in mind that sound is all about movement, or vibration in any material.
Usually air and secondarily in structures.
Ergo, you don't want to so much to think of dampening and dulling the sound
as to stop _movement_.

As an experiment, try using something like 5-inch thick fiberglass foam to
stop sound. Then use construction plastic, you know, a few millimeter thick
see-thru plastic. If you rig plastic around the sound source so that it
stops air movement, is rather rigidly set up, it cuts more on volume than a
thick layer of foam despite being so thin.

Best way to stop sound is have basically any two, solid or pretty much
airtight surfaces and an air gap in between. Ever notice how quiet it is in
a greenhouse built with dual-layered plastic?

Structural vibrations is another story.
coreybenson
2006-02-28 21:15:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by DeeAa
Best way to stop sound is have basically any two, solid or pretty much
airtight surfaces and an air gap in between. Ever notice how quiet it is in
a greenhouse built with dual-layered plastic?
This is true, to a certain extent. It also helps if the two layers are
of different densities, as they will have different resonant and
dampign frequencies. If you make one side thicker than the other, and
they're both floating, they will counteract each other's natural
resonance.

Owens/Corning 703 in 2" thickness does a great job in the air gap, and
can help with dissipating the sound energy.

Corey.
Middle C
2006-03-01 11:41:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by DeeAa
Best way to stop sound is have basically any two, solid or pretty much
airtight surfaces and an air gap in between. Ever notice how quiet it is
in a greenhouse built with dual-layered plastic?
You've obviously have never been in a greenhouse with roudy plants.
Jim
2006-02-28 21:40:34 UTC
Permalink
First of all, there's no such thing as CHEAP soundPROOFING. You can do
some things to cut down some of the frequency ranges, though. Higher
frequencies are much easier to absorb.

If your main concern is noise entering the home, and you have a brick
wall, my suggestion is a DOUBLE door to the house. Second best would be
a heavy, solid door with rubber weather stripping.

If you want to knock down exterior noise, you've got a bigger job ahead
of you.

Acoustic foam is not usually the biggest bang for the buck.

P.S. I just checked the link for the foam. Their own data proves my
point. There is VERY LITTLE sound absorption in the lower frequency
range. You might do better with thick carpet. Or acoustic tile.
Depends on how much you want to spend! Used carpet is often FREE.

The REAL solution is yet another room inside of that room, but you say
that you don't want a major construction project.

Fix that door. Suspend thick carpeting on the walls and ceiling,
stapled to firing strips. You can even put a layer of asphalt based
roofing product under the carpet. NOT simple tar paper, I'm talking
stuff like this:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=268-020
Build sound blocking covers for the windows. Windows are the weak point
for outdoor noise, as would be a garage door, if you haven't already
walled that in. That'd be a good start.

Check craigslist for people getting rid of old carpeting, but avoid
taking it from cat owners, if you know what I mean. And I'd rent a Rug
Doctor and shampoo it before installing.
Post by ~R
Hey group!
I have a room where all my music stuff is that I want to quiet
down a bit, without turning the volume down. I'm hearing mixed
views about acoustic foam. I thought it would help absorb sound,
but I also read that it just kills the ring/echo, but sound still
goes right through it to the next room. Does it help contain the
sound at all?
The room used to be a 2-car garage. It's attached to the house
with a thick brick wall in between. The walls and ceiling are
stuffed with fiberglass insulation. and there's carpet and pad on
the floor. There is a very thin door going from the jam room to
the rest of the house, so I know that can be improved, too.
So, I don't want to undergo a mojor reconstruction project. Just
want to line the walls with some egg-crate type foam.
http://www.foambymail.com/Eggcrate.html
but I thought I'd get some opinions before I shell out some
money. Any thoughts?
Thanks,
~Rob
Tonester
2006-02-28 22:50:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by ~R
Hey group!
I have a room where all my music stuff is that I want to quiet
down a bit, without turning the volume down. I'm hearing mixed
views about acoustic foam. I thought it would help absorb sound,
but I also read that it just kills the ring/echo, but sound still
goes right through it to the next room. Does it help contain the
sound at all?
No. Acoustic foam is designed to diffuse sound, not absorb it. The only way
to absorb sound is with MASS. Start with 3/4 plywood behind the drywall,
cement floors, lots and lots of sound absorbing insulation, solid
doors...etc.
Si
2006-03-01 00:10:59 UTC
Permalink
Egg boxes my friend.

Si
Post by ~R
Hey group!
I have a room where all my music stuff is that I want to quiet
down a bit, without turning the volume down. I'm hearing mixed
views about acoustic foam. I thought it would help absorb sound,
but I also read that it just kills the ring/echo, but sound still
goes right through it to the next room. Does it help contain the
sound at all?
The room used to be a 2-car garage. It's attached to the house
with a thick brick wall in between. The walls and ceiling are
stuffed with fiberglass insulation. and there's carpet and pad on
the floor. There is a very thin door going from the jam room to
the rest of the house, so I know that can be improved, too.
So, I don't want to undergo a mojor reconstruction project. Just
want to line the walls with some egg-crate type foam.
http://www.foambymail.com/Eggcrate.html
but I thought I'd get some opinions before I shell out some
money. Any thoughts?
Thanks,
~Rob
Ben Snyder
2006-03-01 00:56:21 UTC
Permalink
Based on experience, I think you would need many layers of this stuff,
with air gaps in between. Even then I don't know if it would do much.

-ben
Post by Si
Egg boxes my friend.
Si
Post by ~R
Hey group!
I have a room where all my music stuff is that I want to quiet
down a bit, without turning the volume down. I'm hearing mixed
views about acoustic foam. I thought it would help absorb sound,
but I also read that it just kills the ring/echo, but sound still
goes right through it to the next room. Does it help contain the
sound at all?
The room used to be a 2-car garage. It's attached to the house
with a thick brick wall in between. The walls and ceiling are
stuffed with fiberglass insulation. and there's carpet and pad on
the floor. There is a very thin door going from the jam room to
the rest of the house, so I know that can be improved, too.
So, I don't want to undergo a mojor reconstruction project. Just
want to line the walls with some egg-crate type foam.
http://www.foambymail.com/Eggcrate.html
but I thought I'd get some opinions before I shell out some
money. Any thoughts?
Thanks,
~Rob
Jim
2006-03-01 01:13:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Snyder
Based on experience, I think you would need many layers of this stuff,
with air gaps in between. Even then I don't know if it would do much.
-ben
12,000 egg omelet, anyone?
Post by Ben Snyder
Post by Si
Egg boxes my friend.
Si
Post by ~R
Hey group!
I have a room where all my music stuff is that I want to quiet
down a bit, without turning the volume down. I'm hearing mixed
views about acoustic foam. I thought it would help absorb sound,
but I also read that it just kills the ring/echo, but sound still
goes right through it to the next room. Does it help contain the
sound at all?
The room used to be a 2-car garage. It's attached to the house
with a thick brick wall in between. The walls and ceiling are
stuffed with fiberglass insulation. and there's carpet and pad on
the floor. There is a very thin door going from the jam room to
the rest of the house, so I know that can be improved, too.
So, I don't want to undergo a mojor reconstruction project. Just
want to line the walls with some egg-crate type foam.
http://www.foambymail.com/Eggcrate.html
but I thought I'd get some opinions before I shell out some
money. Any thoughts?
Thanks,
~Rob
Patrick Keenan
2006-03-01 03:13:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Si
Egg boxes my friend.
Si
Egg cartons will not provide soundproofing.

They will, however, add lots of rather flammable material to the walls.

-pk
Post by Si
Post by ~R
Hey group!
I have a room where all my music stuff is that I want to quiet
down a bit, without turning the volume down. I'm hearing mixed
views about acoustic foam. I thought it would help absorb sound,
but I also read that it just kills the ring/echo, but sound still
goes right through it to the next room. Does it help contain the
sound at all?
The room used to be a 2-car garage. It's attached to the house
with a thick brick wall in between. The walls and ceiling are
stuffed with fiberglass insulation. and there's carpet and pad on
the floor. There is a very thin door going from the jam room to
the rest of the house, so I know that can be improved, too.
So, I don't want to undergo a mojor reconstruction project. Just
want to line the walls with some egg-crate type foam.
http://www.foambymail.com/Eggcrate.html
but I thought I'd get some opinions before I shell out some
money. Any thoughts?
Thanks,
~Rob
Green/Pace
2006-03-01 14:20:59 UTC
Permalink
A word of caution. If you use flammable construction materials & do have a
fire, kiss your insurance money goodbye!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They will claim negligence. If you care, check with your policy holder as to
what they
require. You might be surprised!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Texas Blue
Post by Patrick Keenan
Post by Si
Egg boxes my friend.
Si
Egg cartons will not provide soundproofing.
They will, however, add lots of rather flammable material to the walls.
-pk
Post by Si
Post by ~R
Hey group!
I have a room where all my music stuff is that I want to quiet
down a bit, without turning the volume down. I'm hearing mixed
views about acoustic foam. I thought it would help absorb sound,
but I also read that it just kills the ring/echo, but sound still
goes right through it to the next room. Does it help contain the
sound at all?
The room used to be a 2-car garage. It's attached to the house
with a thick brick wall in between. The walls and ceiling are
stuffed with fiberglass insulation. and there's carpet and pad on
the floor. There is a very thin door going from the jam room to
the rest of the house, so I know that can be improved, too.
So, I don't want to undergo a mojor reconstruction project. Just
want to line the walls with some egg-crate type foam.
http://www.foambymail.com/Eggcrate.html
but I thought I'd get some opinions before I shell out some
money. Any thoughts?
Thanks,
~Rob
RickH
2006-03-01 16:56:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Si
Egg boxes my friend.
If you go that route, then I would also suggest a sprinkler system and
auto-caller to the fire department. Egg boxes and urethane foam
products have no fire rating and will flame and are useless on bass
frequencies.
Grumpy
2006-03-01 19:22:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by ~R
Any thoughts?
Yeah, get a low-watt tube amp...5 watts or less. That will let you
overdrive the tubes without getting in trouble with the
neighbors/wife/parents.
Jim
2006-03-01 19:45:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grumpy
Post by ~R
Any thoughts?
Yeah, get a low-watt tube amp...5 watts or less. That will let you
overdrive the tubes without getting in trouble with the
neighbors/wife/parents.
What about the drummer?
Cyberserf
2006-03-02 15:29:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim
Post by Grumpy
Post by ~R
Any thoughts?
Yeah, get a low-watt tube amp...5 watts or less. That will let you
overdrive the tubes without getting in trouble with the
neighbors/wife/parents.
What about the drummer?
Put him in a box...that's where I keep mine.

-CS
coreybenson
2006-03-02 15:45:48 UTC
Permalink
Hey, Rob... I know you've received quite a bit of differing information
on your issue. I just thought I'd throw out a quick story:

A little over 2 years ago, we purchased a house because it had the
makings of a recording studio in the basement. We then spent 6 months
trying to soundproof the drum booth and control room from each other.
This entailed numerous well-thought-out experimentation with many
materials and methods.

After installing/removing/installing/removing numerous products, we
ended up spending more than if we'd just done it "right" from the get
go - Carpet can help a little, if you have enough of it, but it's
flammable, looks dorky as all get out, and collects smells.

Five basic products gave us the biggest bang for the buck:

1. dB-Block - this is a lead-replacement material that does a terrific
job of easily adding dead mass between two layers of sheet rock (or
plywood, but rock is cheaper). It's $300 a roll plus shipping, but well
worth it in the end. Trust me. Other manufucturers have similar
products.

2. Owens-Corning Acoustic Fiberglass panels (commonly called 703).
Check the Owens-Corning web site - it's a HUGE resource for you.
2'x4'x2" panels cost us about $2-3 each, I think? Excellent for
stuffing inside a stud wall, or behind fabric to reduce interior
reflections. The goal INSIDE the wall is to reduce the energy that
acoustic waves have, and it works.

3. FrothPak - This is an expanding foam that firms up within seconds
of spraying. We used it between the floor joists. Basically, there were
a dozen acoustic ducts running from one room to the other. By filling
the spaces with FrothPak, we were able to create an air-tight seal.

4. Metal exterior-grade insulated doors with HEAVY weatherstripping
and gasketed thresholds.

5. Acoustic foam - this reduces reflections within the rooms, and
helps reduces standing waves. For the record: Owens-Corning 703 has a
flatter frequency response, and goes lower, but it's itchy, and you
have to come up with a covering of some kind. Our first attempt sucked,
so we went with foam instead. Foam is easier to hang (spray adhesive)
and requires no treatment.

You can TRY all of the suggested free and cheap alternatives, but to do
it right, and get the effect you seem to be looking for, eventually
you'll throw all the used carpetting, egg crates, mattress pads, etc.
away, and get the products that work.

Good luck, man!

Corey
crow
2006-03-03 00:20:08 UTC
Permalink
Where did you get O/C 703 for $3 /sheet?
That is the cheapest price I've ever heard of for that stuff. (note: 703 is
a 3Lb density Rigid Fiberglass Board).

jepp
--
if it sounds good...IT IS GOOD!
Post by coreybenson
Hey, Rob... I know you've received quite a bit of differing information
A little over 2 years ago, we purchased a house because it had the
makings of a recording studio in the basement. We then spent 6 months
trying to soundproof the drum booth and control room from each other.
This entailed numerous well-thought-out experimentation with many
materials and methods.
After installing/removing/installing/removing numerous products, we
ended up spending more than if we'd just done it "right" from the get
go - Carpet can help a little, if you have enough of it, but it's
flammable, looks dorky as all get out, and collects smells.
1. dB-Block - this is a lead-replacement material that does a terrific
job of easily adding dead mass between two layers of sheet rock (or
plywood, but rock is cheaper). It's $300 a roll plus shipping, but well
worth it in the end. Trust me. Other manufucturers have similar
products.
2. Owens-Corning Acoustic Fiberglass panels (commonly called 703).
Check the Owens-Corning web site - it's a HUGE resource for you.
2'x4'x2" panels cost us about $2-3 each, I think? Excellent for
stuffing inside a stud wall, or behind fabric to reduce interior
reflections. The goal INSIDE the wall is to reduce the energy that
acoustic waves have, and it works.
3. FrothPak - This is an expanding foam that firms up within seconds
of spraying. We used it between the floor joists. Basically, there were
a dozen acoustic ducts running from one room to the other. By filling
the spaces with FrothPak, we were able to create an air-tight seal.
4. Metal exterior-grade insulated doors with HEAVY weatherstripping
and gasketed thresholds.
5. Acoustic foam - this reduces reflections within the rooms, and
helps reduces standing waves. For the record: Owens-Corning 703 has a
flatter frequency response, and goes lower, but it's itchy, and you
have to come up with a covering of some kind. Our first attempt sucked,
so we went with foam instead. Foam is easier to hang (spray adhesive)
and requires no treatment.
You can TRY all of the suggested free and cheap alternatives, but to do
it right, and get the effect you seem to be looking for, eventually
you'll throw all the used carpetting, egg crates, mattress pads, etc.
away, and get the products that work.
Good luck, man!
Corey
coreybenson
2006-03-03 14:16:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by crow
Where did you get O/C 703 for $3 /sheet?
That is the cheapest price I've ever heard of for that stuff. (note: 703 is
a 3Lb density Rigid Fiberglass Board).
Ya know, I'm going off an admittedly poor memory on this one. It's
probable it cost more.

We purchased it and the Froth-Pak from a commercial outlet here in
Minneapolis. I truly can't remember how much it cost, and probably
shouldn't have written anything.

Corey
Chimpolean Chimpinista
2006-03-03 13:00:34 UTC
Permalink
The only thing that will "STOP" sound from propagating
is mass. Be it lead sheets in front of your ears, or a
ton of air between you and the source (note a ton of
air at atmosphere will take up lots of room and put you
far away from the source) or the same weight of
fiberglass as the lead between you and the source
(without any openings or holes).

Absorption as noted below is frequency dependant. Don't
expect what a 703 panel does to your cymbals to be as
dramatic for the kick. Bass needs lots o mass to be
stopped.

Without building a room in a room you will only be
cutting the sound down some in the high end and very
little in the bass. Expect no more than 12 - 18dB STC
and even less in the bass.

Sorry there is not cheap and easy way to do this.


Peace
Phil


"coreybenson" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message news:***@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
: Hey, Rob... I know you've received quite a bit of
differing information
: on your issue. I just thought I'd throw out a quick
story:
:
: A little over 2 years ago, we purchased a house
because it had the
: makings of a recording studio in the basement. We
then spent 6 months
: trying to soundproof the drum booth and control room
from each other.
: This entailed numerous well-thought-out
experimentation with many
: materials and methods.
:
: After installing/removing/installing/removing
numerous products, we
: ended up spending more than if we'd just done it
"right" from the get
: go - Carpet can help a little, if you have enough of
it, but it's
: flammable, looks dorky as all get out, and collects
smells.
:
: Five basic products gave us the biggest bang for the
buck:
:
: 1. dB-Block - this is a lead-replacement material
that does a terrific
: job of easily adding dead mass between two layers of
sheet rock (or
: plywood, but rock is cheaper). It's $300 a roll plus
shipping, but well
: worth it in the end. Trust me. Other manufucturers
have similar
: products.
:
: 2. Owens-Corning Acoustic Fiberglass panels
(commonly called 703).
: Check the Owens-Corning web site - it's a HUGE
resource for you.
: 2'x4'x2" panels cost us about $2-3 each, I think?
Excellent for
: stuffing inside a stud wall, or behind fabric to
reduce interior
: reflections. The goal INSIDE the wall is to reduce
the energy that
: acoustic waves have, and it works.
:
: 3. FrothPak - This is an expanding foam that firms
up within seconds
: of spraying. We used it between the floor joists.
Basically, there were
: a dozen acoustic ducts running from one room to the
other. By filling
: the spaces with FrothPak, we were able to create an
air-tight seal.
:
: 4. Metal exterior-grade insulated doors with HEAVY
weatherstripping
: and gasketed thresholds.
:
: 5. Acoustic foam - this reduces reflections within
the rooms, and
: helps reduces standing waves. For the record:
Owens-Corning 703 has a
: flatter frequency response, and goes lower, but it's
itchy, and you
: have to come up with a covering of some kind. Our
first attempt sucked,
: so we went with foam instead. Foam is easier to hang
(spray adhesive)
: and requires no treatment.
:
: You can TRY all of the suggested free and cheap
alternatives, but to do
: it right, and get the effect you seem to be looking
for, eventually
: you'll throw all the used carpetting, egg crates,
mattress pads, etc.
: away, and get the products that work.
:
: Good luck, man!
:
: Corey
:
coreybenson
2006-03-03 14:35:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chimpolean Chimpinista
The only thing that will "STOP" sound from propagating
is mass. Be it lead sheets in front of your ears, or a
ton of air between you and the source (note a ton of
air at atmosphere will take up lots of room and put you
far away from the source) or the same weight of
fiberglass as the lead between you and the source
(without any openings or holes).
On one level you are correct... however, Water has an incredible amount
of Mass. Are you suggesting we should fill our walls with Water? No...
because it also reproduces wave forms REALLY well... and the sound may
actually translate through the wall better. Resilient channel mounting
your sheet rock helps as well... we didn't have an outlet for the
channels when we wer building the studio, or we'd have used it as well.

You have PART of the story correct, Phil. It's been shown by far
smarter people than I this it IS possible to reduce wave forms using
multiple types of construction techniques. We have excellent
performance in our studio, and have been complimented on how separate
the rooms are from each other. Go ahead and continue to use lead as
your only solution... I'm loving my much easier to work with and less
expensive solution.
Post by Chimpolean Chimpinista
Absorption as noted below is frequency dependant. Don't
expect what a 703 panel does to your cymbals to be as
dramatic for the kick. Bass needs lots o mass to be
stopped.
This is true, Phil. However, one of the advantages of 703 is that it
has much flatter absorption than foam. In large enough thickness, it
can go a long way towards stopping reflections within the room, but so
do Lenrd Bass Traps from Auralex. It will NOT stop transmission
between two rooms... but if you put it in the airspace in between, it
can reduce standing waves IN the walls.
Post by Chimpolean Chimpinista
Without building a room in a room you will only be
cutting the sound down some in the high end and very
little in the bass. Expect no more than 12 - 18dB STC
and even less in the bass.
Please check the specs on the dB-Block product I mentioned. It's
obvious you didn't look into it. Average STC=26. At 125 hz, your
estimates are close... 13dB of reduction.

For your reference, Phil:
<http://www.controlnoise.com/dbbloc.html>

In the real world? The shit works. You can claim it doesn't... I'm a
very satisfied user.

For the record: Many other companies sell products similar to dB-Block.
I haven't used them, but am fairly certain they all work in similar
fashions. I don't work for Netwell Noise Control, or have any
affiliation with any of their employees. As I said, I'm merely a very
satisfied user.
Post by Chimpolean Chimpinista
Sorry there is not cheap and easy way to do this.
I agree completely with this point... which is why I made my post,
Phil. Did you look into any of the products I mentioned? Here's the
last paragraph from my post:

: You can TRY all of the suggested free and cheap
: alternatives, but to do it right, and get the effect
: you seem to be looking for, eventually
: you'll throw all the used carpetting, egg crates,
: mattress pads, etc. away, and get the products
: that work.

What part of that isn't clear?

Corey
Brian Running
2006-03-03 15:57:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by coreybenson
Post by Chimpolean Chimpinista
The only thing that will "STOP" sound from propagating
is mass.
On one level you are correct... however, Water has an incredible amount
of Mass. Are you suggesting we should fill our walls with Water? No...
because it also reproduces wave forms REALLY well... and the sound may
actually translate through the wall better.
Here's the deal -- waves do propagate through water very well. However,
the key is how the waves are transduced into the medium. Sound waves in
your studio exist in the medium of air. To be transmitted through
another medium, such as a wall, the waves in the air have to make that
other medium move first. As you know, inertia is a property of matter,
and the greater the mass, the greater the inertia. The greater the mass
of the wall, the less it will be moved by the air waves, and the less
wave energy will be transduced into the wall. So, even though water
transmits sound better than air, its greater mass also means that sound
waves in air will not simply pass into it. A water-filled wall would be
a great sound blocker.

Lead sheeting is, or was, the ultimate sound-deadening method. Large
industrial machines are often encased in lead sheeting to reduce the
noise to operators. Sound waves might travel through lead, but getting
the sound waves into the lead in the first place is really hard -- it
doesn't vibrate very well.
Post by coreybenson
Resilient channel mounting your sheet rock helps as well... we didn't have an outlet for the
channels when we wer building the studio, or we'd have used it as well.
The resiliency of the channels is a method to stop transmission of the
vibration from one medium into another. Even a double-layer of drywall
on a stud-framed wall isn't very massive, and it'll shake pretty easily.
You need that resilient channel to convert some of the vibrational
energy into heat, before it can vibrate the next medium in the chain. I
think that property is called hysteresis.
Post by coreybenson
You have PART of the story correct, Phil....
Go ahead and continue to use lead as
your only solution... I'm loving my much easier to work with and less
expensive solution.
You've both got part of the story correct. Mass is the only thing that
will stop the transmission, but it's not always practical to use that
technique. When you're forced to use non-massive materials, then the
best you can do is make everything spongy so that the inevitable
transmission of waves from one medium into another is damped as much as
possible.
Post by coreybenson
one of the advantages of 703 is that it
has much flatter absorption than foam. In large enough thickness, it
can go a long way towards stopping reflections within the room, but so
do Lenrd Bass Traps from Auralex. It will NOT stop transmission
between two rooms... but if you put it in the airspace in between, it
can reduce standing waves IN the walls.
See? You do agree with what he's saying, after all. Foam won't stop
it, but a sufficiently massive barrier will.
coreybenson
2006-03-03 16:59:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Running
See? You do agree with what he's saying, after all. Foam won't stop
it, but a sufficiently massive barrier will.
I guess I was mainly trying to point out that pouring a six foot thick
lead wall around your rehearsal space, while effective, isn't the ONLY
way to get the job done, Brian. I agree 100% with what you've stated
(and as you pointed out much of what Phil said as well), and hope that
Rob made it this far...
Post by Brian Running
You've both got part of the story correct. Mass is the only thing that
will stop the transmission, but it's not always practical to use that
technique. When you're forced to use non-massive materials, then the
best you can do is make everything spongy so that the inevitable
transmission of waves from one medium into another is damped as much as
possible.
And that's the fact, Jack!

Corey
Brian Running
2006-03-03 17:40:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by coreybenson
I guess I was mainly trying to point out that pouring a six foot thick
lead wall around your rehearsal space, while effective, isn't the ONLY
way to get the job done, Brian.
Well, see, I still don't think you get what I'm sayin', Corey. Pouring
a six-foot thick lead wall around your rehearsal space IS the only way
to get the job done. I'm surprised you haven't done it already -- but,
I really am intrigued by your water-wall idea. Glass walls, filled with
water, tropical fish, kelp, mermaids, shipwrecks, bubbles -- that could
be a totally provocative creative environment, and no sound would ever
escape from it. Of course, the foam room-acoustical treatment would
mess up the view, but the technology is in its infancy. There will be
hurdles to overcome.

I'm also a big proponent of poured-concrete bass speaker cabinets,
although I haven't decided if re-bar interferes with tone or not, yet.

Happy Friday, everybody!
coreybenson
2006-03-03 18:13:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Running
Well, see, I still don't think you get what I'm sayin', Corey. Pouring
a six-foot thick lead wall around your rehearsal space IS the only way
to get the job done. I'm surprised you haven't done it already -- but,
I really am intrigued by your water-wall idea. Glass walls, filled with
water, tropical fish, kelp, mermaids, shipwrecks, bubbles -- that could
be a totally provocative creative environment, and no sound would ever
escape from it. Of course, the foam room-acoustical treatment would
mess up the view, but the technology is in its infancy. There will be
hurdles to overcome.
I love it when your sarcasm bone vibrates at this particular frequency!
lol
Post by Brian Running
I'm also a big proponent of poured-concrete bass speaker cabinets,
although I haven't decided if re-bar interferes with tone or not, yet.
Now you're just being silly... re-bar is so last year. Wouldn't you
want to use a fiber-reinforced concrete product like this:

<http://www.toolbase.org/techinv/techDetails.aspx?technologyID=215>
Post by Brian Running
Happy Friday, everybody!
Whoa, buddy! Jeez, no need to get snippy! Fine, you're right, I'm
wrong... Remind me never to argue with a lawyer!

Corey
Brian Running
2006-03-03 18:41:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by coreybenson
Whoa, buddy! Jeez, no need to get snippy! Fine, you're right, I'm
wrong... Remind me never to argue with a lawyer!
Snippy? Snippy?! Listen, you, I've got half a mind...
coreybenson
2006-03-03 18:50:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Running
Listen, you, I've got half a mind...
I'm just going to bite my tongue...

Corey
Brian Running
2006-03-03 18:56:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by coreybenson
Post by Brian Running
Listen, you, I've got half a mind...
I'm just going to bite my tongue...
:-) Like I said, happy Friday!
Kloka-mo'
2006-03-04 01:44:45 UTC
Permalink
The good folks over at Monster Cable make the best audio re-bar.
Oxygen-free, and baked in a medley of melodies for 4 days, at 440 degrees.

I'd just hate to be the guy who has to hammer all that re-bar into the
concrete though. Tough life!

What is this "resilient channeling"? Another Bose ploy? Some mystical
channeling of sound waves?
(actually, there's an honest question in there) Never heard of the stuff.
--
-rob Slidell, LA

O< "I ga' run tee!"
/(\)
^^
Post by Brian Running
I'm also a big proponent of poured-concrete bass speaker cabinets,
although I haven't decided if re-bar interferes with tone or not, yet.
crow
2006-03-04 03:39:19 UTC
Permalink
resilient channel is a way of mounting sheet goods (Gypsum board, plywood,
particle board...) in a way that somewhat decouples it from the exterior
wall. It's not really room within a room - but it's a cheap, easy way to get
close.

jepp
--
if it sounds good...IT IS GOOD!
Post by Kloka-mo'
The good folks over at Monster Cable make the best audio re-bar.
Oxygen-free, and baked in a medley of melodies for 4 days, at 440 degrees.
I'd just hate to be the guy who has to hammer all that re-bar into the
concrete though. Tough life!
What is this "resilient channeling"? Another Bose ploy? Some mystical
channeling of sound waves?
(actually, there's an honest question in there) Never heard of the stuff.
--
-rob Slidell, LA
O< "I ga' run tee!"
/(\)
^^
Post by Brian Running
I'm also a big proponent of poured-concrete bass speaker cabinets,
although I haven't decided if re-bar interferes with tone or not, yet.
fred marx
2006-03-04 18:20:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by crow
resilient channel is a way of mounting sheet goods (Gypsum board, plywood,
particle board...) in a way that somewhat decouples it from the exterior
wall. It's not really room within a room - but it's a cheap, easy way to get
close.
jepp
we often call it "Z Metal" or sound channel. Screws across the framing
and the dry wall/whatever screws to it. It acts as an isolator. It also
lets a hanger put up straight sheetrock on crappy framing as a bonus.
JohnO
2006-03-03 18:17:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by coreybenson
I guess I was mainly trying to point out that pouring a six foot thick
lead wall around your rehearsal space, while effective, isn't the ONLY
way to get the job done, Brian. I agree 100% with what you've stated
(and as you pointed out much of what Phil said as well), and hope that
Rob made it this far...
It'll kill off inappropriate cell phones, plus if the Russkies
attack...oh... well, it would have made a great fallout shelter. And,
you'd never run out of solder.

-John O
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