Discussion:
I had an idea. (Alert the media!)
(too old to reply)
BW
2014-02-04 01:30:51 UTC
Permalink
OK, what do you think of this:

Next time a club owner or a benefit organizer asks you to play for free, and says "It's great exposure", what about this response.

"Well, I grant you that it might be great exposure, but I also know from experience that "great exposures" often aren't. So let's make a deal. We agree on a price for the band that's fair. You don't pay it. We play the gig. If, within a reasonable amount of time, say a month, we book a gig, even just one paying gig, from someone who saw us for the first time at your event, you don't owe us a penny.
But if we book nothing from your event in that agreed upon period of time, you pay us the previously agreed price. How 'bout that? Fair to all involved."

How many would agree to that? And it would, of course, have to be in writing.

Attorneys among us - your thoughts?
Brian Running
2014-02-04 02:59:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by BW
Attorneys among us - your thoughts?
Yeah - you've got to do it the other way around - you get paid, and
*then* if you get another paying gig you *refund* the money.
BW
2014-02-04 03:03:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Running
Post by BW
Attorneys among us - your thoughts?
Yeah - you've got to do it the other way around - you get paid, and
*then* if you get another paying gig you *refund* the money.
Brian,
I don't believe it would get that far. I can't see anyone who asks for freebies being willing to sign that piece of paper. However, it makes a point. "Put your money where your mouth is." If your 'gig' is such good exposure, back up the claim.
Derek Tearne
2014-02-04 04:26:50 UTC
Permalink
I think it's pretty reasonable.

However, this may be more straightforward.

"We'd love to play your event. And if you can demonstrate that your
event has, in the past, proved to be useful exposure for any of the
people who have played it in the past, we may even consider playing at a
reduced rate. A testimonial from two bands who have played at your event
previously will do".

I think part of the problem is that the people asking bands to play 'for
the great exposure' actually honestly believe that playing at their
event will provide useful exposure that will translate into something
more valuable for the band than the few hundred bucks you might ask for.

They have no clue, and never bother to check, whether this is true or
not. Which also allows them to feel that any bands who aren't prepared
to play 'for the exposure' are arrogant in some way.

--- Derek
--
Derek Tearne - ***@url.co.nz
Vitamin S: improvisation from New Zealand http://www.vitamin-s.co.nz/
d'Groove: 12 piece party/covers band http://www.dGroove.co.nz/
JimmyM
2014-02-04 08:15:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by BW
Next time a club owner or a benefit organizer asks you to play for free, and says "It's great exposure", what about this response.
"Well, I grant you that it might be great exposure, but I also know from experience that "great exposures" often aren't. So let's make a deal. We agree on a price for the band that's fair. You don't pay it. We play the gig. If, within a reasonable amount of time, say a month, we book a gig, even just one paying gig, from someone who saw us for the first time at your event, you don't owe us a penny.
But if we book nothing from your event in that agreed upon period of time, you pay us the previously agreed price. How 'bout that? Fair to all involved."
How many would agree to that? And it would, of course, have to be in writing.
Attorneys among us - your thoughts?
I prefer just to say "No."
Gary Rosen
2014-02-04 08:31:10 UTC
Permalink
Tell them, "If I want exposure I'll just go out to the park
wearing only an overcoat."

- Gary Rosen

"BW" wrote in message news:b6e53bcc-7737-4886-95a4-***@googlegroups.com...

OK, what do you think of this:

Next time a club owner or a benefit organizer asks you to play for free, and
says "It's great exposure", what about this response.

"Well, I grant you that it might be great exposure, but I also know from
experience that "great exposures" often aren't. So let's make a deal. We
agree on a price for the band that's fair. You don't pay it. We play the
gig. If, within a reasonable amount of time, say a month, we book a gig,
even just one paying gig, from someone who saw us for the first time at your
event, you don't owe us a penny.
But if we book nothing from your event in that agreed upon period of time,
you pay us the previously agreed price. How 'bout that? Fair to all
involved."

How many would agree to that? And it would, of course, have to be in
writing.

Attorneys among us - your thoughts?
Gregory Rochford
2014-02-04 14:03:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by BW
Next time a club owner or a benefit organizer asks you to play for free, and says "It's great exposure", what about this response.
"Well, I grant you that it might be great exposure, but I also know from experience that "great exposures" often aren't. So let's make a deal. We agree on a price for the band that's fair. You don't pay it. We play the gig. If, within a reasonable amount of time, say a month, we book a gig, even just one paying gig, from someone who saw us for the first time at your event, you don't owe us a penny.
But if we book nothing from your event in that agreed upon period of time, you pay us the previously agreed price. How 'bout that? Fair to all involved."
How many would agree to that? And it would, of course, have to be in writing.
Attorneys among us - your thoughts?
For benefits, I like "You will pay us (5x normal fee), which we will
donate to your cause, and you provide us with the tax deduction form for
charitable donations."

best
gr
Derek Tearne
2014-02-04 21:12:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gregory Rochford
For benefits, I like "You will pay us (5x normal fee), which we will
donate to your cause, and you provide us with the tax deduction form for
charitable donations."
I have actually done this - although the invoice was something like
$[fee] performance fee
- $[donation]
Amount outstanding $0

This was for an event that we (well I) really wanted to perform at as it
was for an organisation I support and also was going to be an incredibly
cool event.

However, I'd just been burned by another organisation who had, the
previous year, pleaded and begged for us to play for next to nothing as
they were desperately trying to get their festival off the ground and
had no budget. Which was all fine and reasonable. Except they found
budget for other bands when it became obvious they would not have enough
acts and, more importantly, a year later a new person was organisation
entertainment and all he had on file was that we paid for [pitifully
small amount] last year.

So, by framing the invoice so that it includes your actual performance
fee - donation - it makes it clear, not just to the person you are
dealing with now, but to the organisation and whoever is there *next
year*, that your band previously did them a whopping big favour with an
actual value.

There's this strange mindset that, once the festival or whatever starts
making enough money to pay acts, that they don't want acts that play for
free at the top of their bill. So, by 'playing for the exposure' on the
promise you will be offered a paying gig next year you're guaranteeing
that you *won't* get next a paying gig next year.

But I think I'm preaching to the choir here.

--- Derek
--
Derek Tearne - ***@url.co.nz
Vitamin S: improvisation from New Zealand http://www.vitamin-s.co.nz/
d'Groove: 12 piece party/covers band http://www.dGroove.co.nz/
Steve Freides
2014-02-06 03:59:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by BW
Next time a club owner or a benefit organizer asks you to play for
free, and says "It's great exposure", what about this response.
"Well, I grant you that it might be great exposure, but I also know
from experience that "great exposures" often aren't. So let's make a
deal. We agree on a price for the band that's fair. You don't pay it.
We play the gig. If, within a reasonable amount of time, say a month,
we book a gig, even just one paying gig, from someone who saw us for
the first time at your event, you don't owe us a penny.
But if we book nothing from your event in that agreed upon period of
time, you pay us the previously agreed price. How 'bout that? Fair to
all involved."
How many would agree to that? And it would, of course, have to be in writing.
Attorneys among us - your thoughts?
I'm not saying your idea isn't a fine one, but I'm with Jimmy - just say
"no, thanks" and be done with it if it's nothing something you want to
do. In my mind, you do a benefit because you are willing to contribute
to the cause, and you hope the exposure will do you good but you don't
do the benefit _because_ of the exposure. A fine point, perhaps, but an
important one, IMHO.

-S-
Oci-One Kanubi
2014-02-06 15:45:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Freides
Post by BW
Next time a club owner or a benefit organizer asks you to play for
free, and says "It's great exposure", what about this response.
"Well, I grant you that it might be great exposure, but I also know
from experience that "great exposures" often aren't. So let's make a
deal. We agree on a price for the band that's fair. You don't pay it.
We play the gig. If, within a reasonable amount of time, say a month,
we book a gig, even just one paying gig, from someone who saw us for
the first time at your event, you don't owe us a penny.
But if we book nothing from your event in that agreed upon period of
time, you pay us the previously agreed price. How 'bout that? Fair to
all involved."
How many would agree to that? And it would, of course, have to be in writing.
Attorneys among us - your thoughts?
I'm not saying your idea isn't a fine one, but I'm with Jimmy - just say
"no, thanks" and be done with it if it's nothing something you want to
do. In my mind, you do a benefit because you are willing to contribute
to the cause, and you hope the exposure will do you good but you don't
do the benefit _because_ of the exposure. A fine point, perhaps, but an
important one, IMHO.
Yeh, I tell every band I join that I would like to do up to one benefit gig every month, as long as (a) it is a genuine charity, not, for example, some kind of municipal or service-club fundraiser, and (b) there is no other act actually being paid to be on the bill. Two weeks ago we did an MLK Day observance at the local Community College -- didn't have to tote our PA, and got fed, so it was an easy way to do the community a service.

-Richard, His Bassic Travesty
(Did you catch that? I wrote "tote" <hungh, hungh, hungh>! First time ever, probably!)
Steve Freides
2014-02-07 16:44:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oci-One Kanubi
Yeh, I tell every band I join that I would like to do up to one
benefit gig every month, as long as (a) it is a genuine charity, not,
for example, some kind of municipal or service-club fundraiser, and
(b) there is no other act actually being paid to be on the bill. Two
weeks ago we did an MLK Day observance at the local Community College
-- didn't have to tote our PA, and got fed, so it was an easy way to
do the community a service.
Sounds good to me.

-S-
BW
2014-02-06 16:12:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Freides
Post by BW
Next time a club owner or a benefit organizer asks you to play for
free, and says "It's great exposure", what about this response.
"Well, I grant you that it might be great exposure, but I also know
from experience that "great exposures" often aren't. So let's make a
deal. We agree on a price for the band that's fair. You don't pay it.
We play the gig. If, within a reasonable amount of time, say a month,
we book a gig, even just one paying gig, from someone who saw us for
the first time at your event, you don't owe us a penny.
But if we book nothing from your event in that agreed upon period of
time, you pay us the previously agreed price. How 'bout that? Fair to
all involved."
How many would agree to that? And it would, of course, have to be in
writing.
Attorneys among us - your thoughts?
I'm not saying your idea isn't a fine one, but I'm with Jimmy - just say
"no, thanks" and be done with it if it's nothing something you want to
do. In my mind, you do a benefit because you are willing to contribute
to the cause, and you hope the exposure will do you good but you don't
do the benefit _because_ of the exposure. A fine point, perhaps, but an
important one, IMHO.
-S-
I generally DO just say no. But I thought this was a good approach to at least get the 'employer' to put his money where his mouth is. If he (or she) really believes it's good exposure - good enough to not pay any $ - then prove it with a promise that if the exposure proves to be not worthwhile, we get paid.
Also, I didn't post this in reference to a real charity situation, but more for a club owner or similar amoeba who just wants free music.
As for playing for free, I like the idea of "cut me a check and I'll donate it back to you". Tax deduction.
Steve Freides
2014-02-07 16:44:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by BW
Post by Steve Freides
Post by BW
Next time a club owner or a benefit organizer asks you to play for
free, and says "It's great exposure", what about this response.
"Well, I grant you that it might be great exposure, but I also know
from experience that "great exposures" often aren't. So let's make a
deal. We agree on a price for the band that's fair. You don't pay it.
We play the gig. If, within a reasonable amount of time, say a month,
we book a gig, even just one paying gig, from someone who saw us for
the first time at your event, you don't owe us a penny.
But if we book nothing from your event in that agreed upon period of
time, you pay us the previously agreed price. How 'bout that? Fair to
all involved."
How many would agree to that? And it would, of course, have to be in
writing.
Attorneys among us - your thoughts?
I'm not saying your idea isn't a fine one, but I'm with Jimmy - just say
"no, thanks" and be done with it if it's nothing something you want to
do. In my mind, you do a benefit because you are willing to
contribute
to the cause, and you hope the exposure will do you good but you don't
do the benefit _because_ of the exposure. A fine point, perhaps, but an
important one, IMHO.
-S-
I generally DO just say no. But I thought this was a good approach to
at least get the 'employer' to put his money where his mouth is. If
he (or she) really believes it's good exposure - good enough to not
pay any $ - then prove it with a promise that if the exposure proves
to be not worthwhile, we get paid.
Also, I didn't post this in reference to a real charity situation,
but more for a club owner or similar amoeba who just wants free
music.
Yeah, I'm not really on that circuit - thank goodness.

I did one of these for free a few years ago. At the time, it was a cafe
here in town that was trying out entertainment, and the entertainment
was me playing classical guitar for a few hours. I hadn't ever done
that before, and I offered to do it for free with the understanding
that, if the owner felt it was good for business, he'd pay me after
that. For me, I wanted to try it for the first time - very different
than your situation.

It worked out pretty well - I got asked back several times, got paid for
every time except that first one, and in the end, they had to stop using
me because they were doing such a brisk business and the place was so
small they felt it wasn't a worthwhile tradeoff - they no longer needed
me, and they needs the space I took up. The place is still there, still
doing a booming business, still small, and still has no live
entertainment.
Post by BW
As for playing for free, I like the idea of "cut me a check and I'll
donate it back to you". Tax deduction.
Non-profits have all sorts of rules and their own culture. The one I
playing for tonight has a very strict rule - they don't pay _anyone_
from our town. It's a town-based college scholarship charity, and a
pretty serious one in that it raises about $100,000 every year. And it
is good networking for me - I meet a lot people who might become my
students or send their children to me as students, and I feel it's a
win/win. And I enjoy doing it - we have an 7-piece pit band that I
enjoy working with once a year.

My point is that the nonsense the club owners spout to people like you
which, in your situation, is truly complete nonsense, is actually valid
for some people and some circumstances. I've just never gone that
route - all the paid playing I've done, except for the above mentioned
classical guitar stint, has been through schools or religious
institutions. I played a few shows at the local community college, I
get paid to accompany musical theater at the school where my wife
teaches, I sub as a church organist, that sort of thing.

-S-
s***@gmail.com
2014-02-06 22:33:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by BW
Attorneys among us - your thoughts?
I'm glad I don't live in a shithole Country that even allows thinking like that.
JoeSpareBedroom
2014-02-08 14:27:02 UTC
Permalink
"BW" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:b6e53bcc-7737-4886-95a4-***@googlegroups.com...
OK, what do you think of this:

Next time a club owner or a benefit organizer asks you to play for free, and
says "It's great exposure", what about this response.

"Well, I grant you that it might be great exposure, but I also know from
experience that "great exposures" often aren't. So let's make a deal. We
agree on a price for the band that's fair. You don't pay it. We play the
gig. If, within a reasonable amount of time, say a month, we book a gig,
even just one paying gig, from someone who saw us for the first time at your
event, you don't owe us a penny.
But if we book nothing from your event in that agreed upon period of time,
you pay us the previously agreed price. How 'bout that? Fair to all
involved."

How many would agree to that? And it would, of course, have to be in
writing.

Attorneys among us - your thoughts?
===================

Nice fantasy. Forget it. But just for fun, ask the club owner what his
beverage vendors would say if he asked for free kegs of beer because people
will see the brands on the tap handles. "It'll be great exposure for your
beer".

Loading...